Is Evolution compatible with the Bible?

I’ve been looking at whether science and faith are compatible in a series of posts. This post is a continuation from “The Skinny on the “Creation/Evolution Debate.” In particular here the question is, can someone be an Evangelical Bible-believing Christian and also embrace evolution? 

As I’ve said before, I personally have no convictions about evolution one way or the other, but this is a hotly debated topic in Christianity today that we do need to address.

Again, my reason for these series of posts is to show that science is not the enemy of faith, or vise versa. I believe we can learn about life from both. We who hold the Bible as the inspired Word of God should not have a knee-jerk reaction to any perceived threats to our current understanding of the Bible. And, in this case, I don’t think evolutionary theory is a threat to our faith or to the authority of Scripture, although it could be a challenge to how we have interpreted the text.

Here’s a couple of videos with Dr. Jeff Schloss, Professor and Chair of Biology at Westmont College, explaining the issues. Here’s the explanation of the first clip:

In this brief video, Professor Schloss addresses what he sees as the two primary reasons that evangelical Christians oppose evolutionary theory. He notes that the ideas of evolution are threatening on a number of levels for evangelicals, but focuses on two in particular that seem to be the most common.

It’s less than three minutes long so it’s an easy watch.

For those of you who are interested in a deeper discussion, this is a much longer clip from The Veritas Forum with Dr. Schloss and Tremper Longman (Old Testament Scholar, Professor of Biblical Studies at Westmont College). Both Schloss and Longman discuss the controversial issue of evolution and the creation account, the age of the earth, the historical Adam and Eve, and the nature and origin of human beings, from the perspectives of a theologian and a scientist.

If you don’t have time to watch the whole video you can skip ahead to a few points worth mentioning by clicking on the appropriate link.

In the first part of the discussion Dr. Longman discusses how we can understand the Genesis account in a non-wooden-literal way, paying attention to genre, literary devices, and the cultural context in which the narrative was written.

Professor Longman discusses how to understand the age of the earth from a biblical perspective starting here. He also talks about how a young earth creation view was not the predominant historical view held by church leaders in church history (It was James Ussher who came up with the 4004 BC beginning of creation in the seventeenth century). For instance, Origen (185 – 254 CE) and Augustine (354 – 430 CE) did not take this view.

Dr. Schloss talks about how science has helped us develop better theology where the meaning of the text is uncertain here.

Both Longman and Schloss discuss the historical nature of Adam here. Dr. Longman talks about how regardless of whether Adam is representative of human nature or a literal historic figure, one can be true to the text.

Interestingly, Dr. Schloss mentions recent findings in biology that may confirm a traditional reading of the historical Adam and Eve here.

I especially appreciated where Jeff Schloss talks about two examples where faith pre-commitments have helped science here.

The interviewer (Josh Swamidass) concludes that while these things can appear challenging they can also be emboldening because it can help put into focus what the core tenets of the faith are, as opposed to the non-core tenets where there’s been honest debate throughout church history which gives us the freedom to explore those issues in the light of science here.

The video ends with some Q & A. Here’s the whole talk.

About Mel Wild

God's favorite (and so are you), a son and a father, happily married to the same beautiful woman for 42 years. We have three incredible adult children. My passion is pursuing the Father's heart in Christ and giving it away to others. My favorite pastime is being iconoclastic and trailblazing the depths of God's grace. I'm also senior pastor of Cornerstone Church in Wisconsin.
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244 Responses to Is Evolution compatible with the Bible?

  1. john zande says:

    As I’ve said before, I personally have no convictions about evolution one way or the other

    So, do you accept then that evolution is entirely unguided, and human beings are nothing but an unplanned evolutionary accident; a fortuitous (for us), but completely unintended, incident in the evolutionary paradigm?

    Is this your position, Mel?

    • Mel Wild says:

      If I don’t have a position how can this be my position, John? And do you have indisputable empirical proof that the process is always completely unguided and accidental?

      • john zande says:

        So you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where mutations are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

      • john zande says:

        Mel, do you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where environment and mutations are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

      • john zande says:

        Okay, I’ll take your reluctance to answer this as confirmation that you do, in fact, hold very, very, very strong convictions on the subject of evolution, where mutations (and the environment in general) are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed. They are not goal-oriented.

        So, why the lie?

        • Mel Wild says:

          John, by repeating this statement over and over after I answered you, I can only conclude one of two things: either you’re too dense to understand my answer or you don’t care what I say and you’re just being disingenuous so you can make your false accusations. From your comment here, I suppose it’s the latter but I’ll let you pick which one it is.

        • john zande says:

          You claim to not have a position on evolution, which means, by default, you accept evolutionary theory.

          Correct?

          Evolutionary theory states that mutations (and the environment in general) are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed. They are not goal-oriented.

          In-turn, this means that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process.

          This is your position?

        • Mel Wild says:

          I have NO position, John. Get it? All views of evolution include randomness, including Process Structuralism and Niche Construction. The question is NOT whether there’s randomness to the process. But you are saying that it’s ALL accidental and unguided, yet, evidently, you have no indisputable, empirical proof for that. So, why should I commit to such a dogmatic position? I’m agnostic when it comes to evolutionary theory. I’m not against it nor do I have a conviction about it.

        • john zande says:

          All views of evolution include randomness, including Process Structuralism and Niche Construction.

          Essentially true. Niche evolution, for example, forms the nexus between ecological and evolutionary questions, which is to say the extent of the role environment plays in selection. Environment is not “guided.” Regarding process structuralism, it points to things like fixed bauplans, which are simply not borne out in the fossil record. As someone far smarter than me once said, believing in micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution, is like believing in stairs, but not the staircase. Process structuralism (as presented today) is simply wrong.

          So, what you should say is this: evolutionary theory is wholly defined in, and by, randomness.

          Wholly.

          But you are saying that it’s ALL accidental and unguided, yet, evidently, you have no indisputable, empirical proof for that.

          Of course I do: all the mistakes, which include the utterly appalling Harlequin-type ichthyosis. Google it, and look at the images.

          Are you suggesting that was intentional?

          What about the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event? Was that intentional?

          Unguided simply means not goal-orientated, which is precisely what the evidence points to.

          If you wish to posit guidance, then demonstrate it.

          I’m agnostic when it comes to evolutionary theory. I’m not against it nor do I have a conviction about it.

          So you accept, then, that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process?

          Yes, or No?

        • Mel Wild says:

          So you accept, then, that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process?
          Yes, or No?

          Again, if I’m agnostic about it, why must I accept an unproved theory? Where is your indisputable, empirical proof that humans are entirely unintended and accidental? You are making a claim that it’s all totally accidental. You must prove that, John. The onus is on you now.

        • john zande says:

          An “unproved theory”?

          Is it? Has it been falsified?

          Don’t make such an absurd statement.

          Fortunately for you, Mel, evolutionary theory is fact. I say “fortunately” because you reap the benefits of this fact every day.

          Deal with it.

          Where is your indisputable, empirical proof that humans are entirely unintended and accidental?

          The entire earthly evolutionary paradigm (3.8 billion years) is my evidence.

          If you have something that falsifies that, then present it. Show me the goal-orientated guidance.

          Present your case.

          You are making a claim that it’s all totally accidental. You must prove that, John.

          You want to argue Harlequin-type ichthyosis was deliberately fashioned and released by Yhwh?

        • Mel Wild says:

          John, you are just making more claims. Again, the argument is not with evolution itself. My question is, how have you proven beyond any doubt that it’s all accidental and unguided? You have not done this at all.

        • john zande says:

          Again, the argument is not with evolution itself.

          Yes, you are arguing with evolution itself. Evolutionary theory states, very clearly, that mutations (and the environment in general) are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed. They are not goal-oriented.

          If you disagree with this, then you are claiming evolutionary theory is wrong.

          Period.

          You, however, have the opportunity to falsify this. Present your evidence for goal-orientated guidance.

          Until then, 3.8 billion years of the earthly evolutionary paradigm proves you wrong…. Unless, of course, you wish to argue Harlequin-type ichthyosis, for example, was deliberately fashioned and released by Yhwh.

          Do you wish to argue this?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Again, no one is arguing against gradual change or against general randomness or mutations. But can you empirically prove that the entire process is not goal-oriented and has no purpose?

        • john zande says:

          Again, no one is arguing against gradual change or against general randomness or mutations.

          Oh, but you are. You keep presenting process structuralism which, in its modern creationist manifestation, posits some sort of magical barrier standing between micro and macro evolution. That is what fixed bauplans means, Mel.

          But can you empirically prove that the entire process is not goal-oriented and has no purpose?

          Yes. The mistakes make that patently obvious.

          From the Genetic Literacy Project: “Most mutations in the human genome are recent and probably harmful”

          Joshua Akey of the University of Washington … estimated that more than 80 percent are probably harmful to us.

          Yes or No, do you wish to argue all the mistakes (the abhorrent genetic mutations, lethal mutagenesis, bottlenecks, adverse genetic drift, environmental shifts, bolide impacts, mass extinctions, etc.) are all intended by Yhwh?

          Yes, or No?

        • KIA says:

          Brother Mel, how can you honestly say you have no position either way on the theory of evolution, natural selection and common decent? I’m confused. Really. Could you explain ?

  2. Arkenaten says:

    In particular here the question is, can someone be an Evangelical Bible-believing Christian and also embrace evolution?

    No.

    • Mel Wild says:

      And your opinion is based on what?

      • Arkenaten says:

        You, for a kick off.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Right, that proves it.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Well, aren’t you one of God’s earthly representatives, Mel?

        • Mel Wild says:

          How is that relevant?

        • Arkenaten says:

          You know that God did it as he revealed it to you, so obviously there is no compatibility between being an evangelical christian – like you – and believing in evolution.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Sorry, that’s incoherent and wrong. It has nothing to do with the question.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Really? Well, based on the comments and questions from every secularist that visits and comments here your every response is incoherent.
          1.You are evangelical.
          2.You do not accept evolution. ( ”I have no opinion…” ) my arse!

          Ergo … the two are incompatible.

          How can one make the point any clearer?

        • Mel Wild says:

          I have no conviction about evolution, one way or the other, Ark. My opinion is that it doesn’t look totally accidental. No one has proven empirically that it is. Even Dawkins admits it appears designed, even though he rejects a designer.

        • Arkenaten says:

          My apologies. So what you are in fact saying is that if you bothered to seriously examine the evidence you would almost certainly accept evolution just as 98% of the scientific community, and a great many Christians, yes?

        • Mel Wild says:

          I have no reason to deny evolutionary theory. Again, I have a very basic layman’s understanding of what the majority view is today. If that turns out to be empirically proven, so be it. But you and I know the majority view does not prove that it’s completely accidental and without purpose. As Nan implied, I don’t think you can prove intention. So, there will always be room for different views on the nature of the evolutionary process.

        • Arkenaten says:

          You are talking origins of life, not evolution.

          Evolution is acknowledged as fact.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No one is arguing against evolution. I’m talking about the nature of the evolutionary process. Is it totally accidental and unguided and without purpose? For instance, JohnZ asked me if I believed that humans are a total accident and unplanned. I don’t have to deny evolution to say that cannot be proven.

        • tildeb says:

          When reality in every facet into which we can gain knowledge about it isn’t enough to sway you one way or the other Mel, then you maintaining this opinion of doubt because it’s supposed lack of empirical evidence is laughably untrue. You doubt it for only one reason and one reason only: it is contrary to and in conflict with your religious creationist beliefs. That’s the sum total of your ’empirical’ demand: whether or not some explanation comports with your religious beliefs.

    • KIA says:

      Not Honestly ark. Not with integrity.

  3. tildeb says:

    I see the evolution of Mel’ religious beliefs slowly sliding down the religious aqueduct away from brute evangelical fundamentalism to the wondrous world of Karen Armstrong’s sophisticated religious beliefs, that God is really the god behind the God (only one part of whom we can a warm and fuzzy personal relationship) and not to let all this theistic and scientific detail about what this actually means get in the way of such insightful ground-of-being theology. Now Mel says he doesn’t hold any opinions about what evolution means, even though he does try to hold contrary religious beliefs that do not comport.

    I hold no opinions about germ theory or gravity but I do believe in miraculous healing and people levitating by divine tinkering, both of which I can say with a great deal of religiously inspired confidence are perfectly compatible with germ theory and gravity, not that I hold any opinions about germ theory or gravity, mind you.

    What? You have continuity problems with my thinking? Pshaw. You have to be a fundamentalist of some kind to disagree with my oh-so-reasonable position and, besides, I don’t hold any position so I have no clue what you’re complaining about.

  4. Nan says:

    I keep reading these round and round discussions between you, John, and Ark … and while I support the idea of evolution more than “creation,” I fail to see the point of going on and on about the topic. Neither side is going to sway the other side so … why?

    And one more thing … I disagree that every evangelical bible-believing christian is unable to support evolution. The difference is the way it’s interpreted. The non-believer uses the accepted science-based definition; the believer uses a “modified” definition often referred to as “theistic evolution” (and even within that definition are different interpretations).

    The bottom line is we don’t know. We have theories and beliefs — and a degree of proof for the scientific viewpoint — but nothing is hard and fast. Except one’s personal opinion.

    • Mel Wild says:

      I would agree with you here, Nan.

      • tildeb says:

        Of course you would, Mel: that’s why she said it, to earn your stamp of approval. And – oh look! – you give it. Who cares about reality?

        • Mel Wild says:

          And, of course, I would expect this reply from you, Tildeb, being that you have proven yourself to be a combative, intolerant, dogmatic antitheist zealot. So…who cares about what you have to say?

    • Arkenaten says:

      Forgive me for asking. Nan; are you saying that evolution is not considered accepted fact based upon the evidence?

      • Nan says:

        No, I’m not saying that. Please don’t read anything more into my comment than what is there.

        • Arkenaten says:

          You wrote: The bottom line is we don’t know. We have theories and beliefs — and a degree of proof for the scientific viewpoint — but nothing is hard and fast. Except one’s personal opinion.

          Well, there is the personal opinion of the hundreds of thousands of qualified individuals who have committed their lives to this field who rely solely on evidence and then there is Mel and his personal opinion, which by necessity must incorporate Jesus of Nazareth as the likely candidate.

          Do you believe that his opinion is just as worthy as 98% of the relevant scientists working in this field?

        • Nan says:

          Geez, Ark. Stop putting words into my comment. I’m trying to stay neutral here.

          Yes, science has TONS of evidence related to how and why life exists on this planet. But the question still remains … how did it all get started. The scientific community has a generally accepted theory (and I lean in that direction), but we do not have undeniable and incontrovertible proof … yet.

          The fact that Mel and other believers look at evolution through the lens of their creator doesn’t take away from what science has discovered. It’s simply their way to “keep the faith.”

        • tildeb says:

          No, that’s not what you’re doing, Nan. You are creating a bubble world of doubt and uncertainty where none is justified. None. Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with abiogenesis. Nothing. Yet here you are doing what deniers everywhere do, trying to present knowledge as something equivalent to a superstitious belief. You are telling us that you think the scientific method is somehow unworthy of our very highest confidence… compared to a superstitious belief, that both has some merit, that everything that works due to the scientific method is somehow doubtful in order to make wiggle room for superstition. That’s the definition of a denier and that what faitheists do, manufacture doubt where none exists on merit. It’s execrable.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Do you believe that his opinion is just as worthy as 98% of the relevant scientists working in this field?

          That is a false dichotomy, Ark. It’s not choosing between evolution or a creator. There are many evolutionary biologists who are theists.

        • Arkenaten says:

          So we are back to guided and unguided are we?
          And this is why I stated there is no compatibility.
          We know evolution is fact.
          The only point you wish to assert is that Jesus the Nazarene had a hand in it and is still giving it a proverbial shove in the back every so often, am I right?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Okay, is your evolutionary “fact” that the evolutionary process is totally accidental and unguided? There is no purpose whatsoever? And, if so, can you prove that this is an indisputable fact that is empirically proven?

        • Arkenaten says:

          We are not talking purpose but whether Evangelical Christianity is compatible with evolution.
          The answer is an emphatic, no.
          And you are living proof.
          Chalk that up on the board.
          http://www.nas.edu/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

          If you wish to stray off topic, rather take the comment and make a new post.

        • Mel Wild says:

          You still haven’t explained why you think your opinion is true.

        • Arkenaten says:

          What do want, a definition of what evangelical Christianity is?
          I just wrote you believe that Jesus the Nazarene was responsible and you could not likely be Christian without his involvement -for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
          You are
          Trying to insert supernatural into natural.
          If you have evidence then feel free to present it.
          Otherwise, go play in the other sandpit with Jesus.

        • Mel Wild says:

          That is not the question, Ark. And your dismissive quips don’t change the question either. Science does not deal with the supernatural, one way or the other. It’s indifferent on the grounds of methodology, so your point is irrelevant. How is evolution incompatible with believing in a creator? Really, you seem to be making the same argument as a dogmatic fundamentalist.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Once again, the question was:
          In particular here the question is, can someone be an Evangelical Bible-believing Christian and also embrace evolution?

          And the answer remains an emphatic no.

        • Mel Wild says:

          And you’ve proven this how?

        • Arkenaten says:

          Because you are an Evangelical and you do not believe in evolution.

          Here’s PEW …
          Pay close attention to Number 3

          Nearly two-thirds (64%) of white evangelicals say that humans and other living things have always existed in their present form, while roughly one-in-ten white evangelicals (8%) say that humans evolved through natural processes.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Wrong, Ark. I am personally indifferent to Evolution. I have nothing against the theory. It’s not a threat to my theology. You are stereotyping.
          And these PEW numbers will probably change over time. It’s most likely due to ignorance of the details or politically motivated rather than based on education on the issues.

          Why is so important to you that we be against evolution?

        • john zande says:

          I am personally indifferent to Evolution. I have nothing against the theory.

          Except, of course, the central premise of the theory, which you reject.

          But apart from that…

          Good. Grief.

        • Arkenaten says:

          And this ….
          The rejection of evolution by most evangelicals is largely mirrored by their churches, such as the Southern Baptist Convention and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, which explicitly reject evolutionary theory as being in conflict with what they see as biblical truth.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Yes, they are both Fundamentalists. Obviously, you didn’t look at the Tegmark UROP study I posted. Only 11% of American religious organizations are anti-science. SBC and Missouri Synod, Jehovah Witnesses, etc., are among the 11%. But 89% are not anti-science.

        • Arkenaten says:

          You believe that the character Jesus the Nazarene is the crucial part of your version of evolution.
          This is not compatibility, as has been pointed out to you time and time again.
          You are importing a supernatural catalyst and have no evidence with which to back this preposterous piece of fiction.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Why is what I believe about Jesus a crucial part of my version of evolution? Evolutionary theory describes the biological process. God is not biological. And Jesus didn’t address evolution at all. I don’t see the conflict.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Because you believe there could be no evolution without the character Jesus the Nazarene.
          Fact meets Fantasy.
          Incompatible.

        • Mel Wild says:

          But there is evolution so Jesus does exist then, right? I’m just using your logic.

        • Arkenaten says:

          No. Red carefully. You believe evolution is not possible without the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene.
          Fact meet fantasy.
          Incompatible.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Not fantasy, it’s called faith. That has nothing to do with compatibility, Ark. And I could say that you cannot prove that evolution is self-existent, without a causal agent. So, to say evolution does not need a cause is also a faith-statement.

          Nothing whatsoever is possible without a creator is a theological point, not a scientific one. So, logically, since evolution does exist it is compatible with Christ since all things are held together and are sustained by Him. It’s not logically incompatible with my faith.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I cannot prove origins. No one can at this stage.
          And science recognizes its limitations and its genuine proponents will say something along the lines of:
          ”We don’t know”

          YOU say: ”Jesus the Nazarene did it.”
          This is a claim with absolutely zero evidence to substantiate it.

          To claim it is truth is nothing but a lie.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Of course, we cannot prove origins. Science cannot prove or disprove a creator. But my point is, if evolution exists it does not conflict with my belief in God. It simply means that evolution is the biological process that is sustained by God.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Evolution does exist. It is fact.
          And your belief is completely incompatible as you have no evidence to support it and to teach the involvement of the narrative construct, Jesus the Nazarene is dishonest.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Believing in God has nothing to do with what I believe about the biological process of nature.

        • john zande says:

          Of course, we cannot prove origins.

          Oh, I don’t know. We’re actually geting very, very close.

          In 1953, Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey set out to test Alexander Oparin’s and J. B. S. Haldane’s hypothesis that conditions on the primitive Earth favoured “chemical reactions that synthesized organic compounds from inorganic precursors,” and through their experiments successfully cooked up the first manmade Amino Acids in the lab. Since then NASA’s Stardust probe triumphantly returned to earth in 2006 with Amino Acids it’d captured after intercepting the comet 81P/Wild (Wild-2) around Jupiter, proving that these fundamental building blocks of life occur naturally on earth and are found equally naturally in space.

          in 2009, Dr. Gerald Joyce of the Scripps Research Institute and his graduate student, Tracey Lincoln, pretty much nailed primitive ‘life’ – a progenitor of life if you like – when they developed a molecule composed of nothing but RNA enzymes in a test tube that replicated and evolved, swapping genes for just as long as the conditions were right to do so. Doing what molecules do it Xeroxed itself by using its own basic structure as a scaffolding from which to build new copies from pairs of smaller molecules. Incredibly, when incorrect copies were made mutations arose and the molecule quite happily passed on those changes to the proceeding generation, and so it slowly evolved. Although not technically speaking ‘life’ Joyce and Lincoln’s work was an astonishing in-road into a beautiful albeit strikingly simple process first teased-free by Darwin five generations ago.

          Also in 2009 John Sutherland of the University of Manchester went even further when he successfully cooked up two of the four ribonucleotides found in both RNA and DNA molecules and by doing so created the first stirrings of life on earth. Unlike other researchers before him, Sutherland and his team did not jump right into sugars and nucleobases rather they started first with a host of simpler molecules most likely around in earth’s primordial goo. They diluted the molecules in water, heated the solution, and then allowed it to evaporate so as to replicate sequential changes in conditions which was then irradiated with ultraviolet light; a process which left behind hybrid half-sugar, half-nucleobase molecules. To this residue they again added water, heated it, allowed it evaporate, irradiated it, and repeated the process over and over. Remarkably, with each passing phase the molecules became more and more complex and when phosphates were added in the very last stage Sutherland found himself staring at two ribonucleotides; half a naturally built RNA molecule. “My ultimate goal,” said Sutherland, “is to get a living system (RNA) emerging from a one-pot experiment. We can pull this off. We just need to know what the constraints on the conditions are first.”

          Even more recently and perhaps even more remarkably researchers led by Phil Holliger at the Medical Research Council Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge announced in early months of 2012 they’d successfully made the first synthetic RNA and DNA molecules which they called, XNA: xeno-nucleic acids. They achieved this mind-jarringly colossal leap in constructing artificial life by building synthetic versions of RNA and DNA’s nucleobase ladder rungs. By synthesizing enzymes (what they’ve called, polymerases) they could then bind the XNA molecules to DNA or reverse the process back to a single RNA strand; passing genetic information between the natural and synthetic molecules at will, leading MRC scientist, Victor Pinheiro, to observe “Thus heredity and evolution, two hallmarks of life, are not limited to DNA and RNA.”

        • Mel Wild says:

          John, none of this touches whether there’s a creator or not. All these experiments are still starting with “something.” You are still very much inside the natural world. It’s not even about whether there’s a beginning of time and space or not. We believe God created the universe ex nillo (from nothing whatsoever). Here’s some comments on that in this clip.

        • john zande says:

          Well, one doesn’t require a “creator” for life if autocatalytic Nano machines arise naturally.

        • Mel Wild says:

          So how is this getting something from nothing? You still very much have something here.

        • john zande says:

          Ah, your God of the Gaps….

          Have fun with that, Mel.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, it’s not John. If you are trying to say that something came from nothing, none of these experience even touch the question. It’s still starting with something.

        • john zande says:

          Yes, it is. It is the very definition of God-of-the-Gaps. You just tried to imply your god, Yhwh/Jesus, was necessary for the start of life (abiogenesis, “Of course, we cannot prove origins”), but as you can see, some very bright people are making astonishing inroads into expelling that myth. Indeed, it appears that life might be inevitable, almost impossible to not have pop up. Now you have to push your god, Yhwh/Jesus, even further back, back into another gap in our knowledge, but your proposition here collapses in a sewer of self-contradiction. You claim something cannot come from nothing, yet in the same breath you state categorically that your god came from nothing. Then you might say “but my god is eternal, it always was,” to which you fall even deeper into your sewer of contradiction, because in the same breath you state categorically that the universe itself cannot be eternal. Why not? Presently we’re only exploring the baryonic world, and we KNOW that only comprises a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the material world. You, like me, have absolutely no idea of what wonders and craziness exist in that dark realm.

          So yes, Mel, enjoy your God of the Gaps.

        • tildeb says:

          ” It simply means that evolution is the biological process that is sustained by God,” says Mel. What can this possibly mean in any knowable way, “sustained by God?”

          Well, it’s as I’ve said, a very typical Armstrong-ian reference, so nebulous in any practical sense that it is utterly meaningless on its own and can be whatever Mel wants it to be. Oh look, there’s some ‘sustaining’ of a deadly pox over there. Isn’t Jesus wonderful? Oh, no, no, no. Not that. That’s something else.

          The ‘sustaining’ is the loving ground of being out of which this unguided, purposeless , and utterly indifferent process comes, donchaknow, you combative, intolerant, dogmatic antitheist zealot, you! And besides, this scientific idea is all very compatible with Mel’s guided, purposeful, and very concerned divine loving presence he believes creates and operates the process… for reasons he is incapable of iterating. But he just knows there’s compatibility there!

          Good grief.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Try this …
          http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/can-evolution-and-creation-go-together

          Is it possible to believe in evolution and still be a Christian? If being a Christian means believing that the Bible is the authentic, trustworthy Word of God and that Christ is our Creator and Savior, the answer is “No.” One cannot believe these things and also believe in evolution as the explanation for the origin of life on our earth as we know it.

        • Mel Wild says:

          You are simply linking to one interpretation of the Bible. Historically speaking, most of Christianity has not taken a wooden-literal view of the creation narrative.

        • Arkenaten says:

          So you disagree with this Christian view then I take it?

        • Mel Wild says:

          You obviously didn’t watch the second video. They give lots of argument why.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I would like to read it from your hand.

        • Mel Wild says:

          I have posted on this and have commented at length. The fact that you have to ask means that you don’t really listen to what I say.

        • Arkenaten says:

          The video is 76 minutes long!
          I’m not going to put myself through over an hour of apologetic torture.
          I reiterate. Ultimately you are asserting that the biblical character, the narrative construct, Jesus the Nazarene is the one responsible for evolution.
          This is an assertion for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever and to preach it is dishonest.

          And this is why evolution is not compatible with the bible/Christianity.

        • Mel Wild says:

          I’m not going to put myself through over an hour of apologetic torture.

          What you mean is that you’re not interested in hearing any opposing views to your own. So, why bother asking me? In my post, I put links in various places where you can skip ahead to the subject you are interested in. You don’t have to watch the whole video. They talk about the age of the earth on one of those links (like here)

          This is an assertion for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever and to preach it is dishonest.

          That is a purely scientistic statement! Again, you keep talking about evidence? What kind of evidence are you talking about? Scientific evidence? That’s a fallacious category mistake. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.

          And this is why evolution is not compatible with the bible/Christianity.

          No, it’s not. Evolution has nothing to do with whether there’s a creator or not. That is another fallacious argument.

        • Arkenaten says:

          No, it’s not. Evolution has nothing to do with whether there’s a creator or not. That is another fallacious argument.

          Wrong. You believe that evolution was caused and is still guided by the narrative construct, the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene for whom you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
          Thus the bible and evolution are incompatible.
          Period.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Your argument in incoherent. Having faith in God and the biology of evolution are categorically different things, therefore it is a category mistake, which is a fallacious argument.

        • Arkenaten says:

          No, it is not simply because you cannot remove the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene from the equation.
          You are simply being disingenuous, and you know it.

        • Mel Wild says:

          If you refuse to see the difference, I cannot make you see, Ark. Logically, believing in God or not believing in God is irrelevant to the biology of evolution. One is a natural process, the other is not biological. It doesn’t matter if I can prove God or not; they are categorically different things.
          We’ll have to leave it there. I’m getting off the merry-go-round.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I acknowledge that you accept evolution, bit your version must include the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene as the catalyst and current ”guiding hand”, for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
          Thus, the bible is incompatible with evolution.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, it’s categorically two different things. It’s not about scientific proof. It’s a philosophical point. I can believe that something is designed without being in conflict with how it’s designed.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Of course it is two different things!
          And you have no evidence for what you are asserting; that the biblical character, the narrative construct Jesus the Nazarene was responsible for evolution and is still guiding it. And this is why the bible is incompatible with evolution.

          It is no different than if I said: ”Oh, yes I believe in evolution but you must understand that it was Harry Potter who waved his wand and kick-started the whole process and he still watches over us via a crystal ball.”

          To suggest such a thing is delusional.
          And it is no different to what you are claiming.

        • Mel Wild says:

          And you have no answer for why we have evolution in the first place. To say that there is no cause for our existence is totally delusional, so there you are.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I do not have the answer for evolution and neither does science. And most importantly NEITHER DO YOU.
          To claim a cause is one thing. But to claim the cause is a narrative construct, the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene is fucking ludicrous!
          So there you are , you ignorant bloody tit!

        • Mel Wild says:

          Wow, Ark. What devastating logic. You’re so much more convincing when you ridicule and call people names.
          Sorry, it’s still a fallacious argument.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Hilarious!
          Okay, Mel, I surrender.
          The biblical character, the narrative construct Jesus the Lake Tiberius Jay Walker is the creator of the universe and he invented evolution too.
          ”It’s life, Jim, but not as we know it.”
          Now, where do Is sign if I want to convert ?
          🙂

        • Mel Wild says:

          Haha. I like Monty Python, btw. I think they’re funny. It still doesn’t give you a coherent argument though.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Mel, there is no argument, my friend.
          Evolution stands alone and your god, the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene has no say in it.
          Unless, of course, you can provide us all with just one teensy-weensy bit of evidence?
          And if you can’t, then we can say with absolute confidence evolution is not compatible with the bible.

        • Mel Wild says:

          They are category differences so there is no incompatibility. I don’t see why you don’t get this. It has nothing to do with proving or disproving God.

        • Arkenaten says:

          The bible is a work of historical fiction. We know this to be fact.
          The central character – as far as Christianity is concerned – is Jesus the Nazarene whom you believe is the creator of the universe.
          The Theory of Evolution is recognized as fact.
          However, you believe that Jesus the Nazarene guides the evolutionary process and is inseparable from it.
          Thus, evolution is not compatible with the bible.
          Period.

          .

        • Mel Wild says:

          Even if you were right about the Bible (which you cannot prove), it’s still irrelevant.
          And you can prove me wrong about God by telling me where evolution came from and why there is evolution in the first place. Otherwise, you have nothing to say about whether God exists or not.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Even if you were right about the Bible (which you cannot prove), it’s still irrelevant.

          I am right, it is historical fiction, and thus it is relevant.

          And you can prove me wrong about God by telling me where evolution came from and why there is evolution in the first place. Otherwise, you have nothing to say about whether God exists or not.

          Aaah … an origin of life question.
          Well, then:
          I don’t know.

          I am not saying anything about whether your god exists of not.

          Your post asks: Is the Bible compatible with evolution?
          I have explained numerous times already that, no it is not, and also explained why.
          Nothing has changed in this regard unless you can provide evidence to support your claim of compatibility.

        • Mel Wild says:

          I have explained numerous times already that, no it is not, and also explained why.
          Nothing has changed in this regard unless you can provide evidence to support your claim of compatibility.

          What hasn’t changed is the irrelevance of your point. I could just as easily say that unless you can disprove God or prove causation, evolution is incompatible with atheism. Both are equally invalid points.

          Having a theistic belief is not incompatible with embracing evolution any more than having an atheist position is incompatible. It doesn’t matter whether God can be proven to exist or not, either way you look at it, a theist can also embrace evolution. If God exists, He sustains evolution. If He doesn’t exist (which science will never prove or disprove, evolution can still be studied by the theist (but you still would have no explanation for it). So, again, your argument is fallacious and invalid. I’ll leave it at that since you obviously don’t want to listen to reason.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I am not disproving your god or anyone else’s.
          You consider your god, the character Yahweh, Jesus the Nazarene is part and parcel of evolution. It says so right there in Genesis 1.
          And even if you now consider this a bit of a fairy tale you still consider that Jesus the Nazarene has his hand on the tiller guiding evolution, don’t you?
          So, once more. No, Mel the bible and evolution are not compatible.

        • Mel Wild says:

          It’s still an invalid point, Ark. The fact that you don’t get this is beyond me but I’ll leave it there.

        • Arkenaten says:

          No, it is perfectly valid.
          You believe your god is an integral part of the evolutionary process.
          Your god is only found in the bible.
          The bible is considered to be historical fiction.
          Ergo … the bible and evolution are not compatible.
          Go read Genesis 1 again …

        • john zande says:

          accidental, unguided, purpose

          Unguided simply means not-goal orientated.

          Purpose depends on environment. If its purposeful given the conditions it is “selected.”

        • Mel Wild says:

          Something that appears unguided does not prove no purpose or goal. The goal could include giving great latitude in randomness, even mistakes along the way. It may just look unguided.
          And I’m not even really arguing against your point. I’m simply saying that you cannot prove that there is no purpose behind whatever the process actually is.

        • john zande says:

          Something that appears unguided does not prove no purpose or goal.

          Purpose is determined by environment. Is it helpful? Yes. Great, selected (if you’re lucky).

          The goal could include giving great latitude in randomness, even mistakes along the way.

          Sure, OK, then you are stating Yhwh sits by, passively watching while horrendous diseases like Harlequin-type ichthyosis ravage little children for no reason other than it satisfies Yhwh’s creative curiosity.

          You are stating Yhwh sat by, passively watching as 94% of all life on earth was burnt and starved in a planetary bolide impact extinction event.

          You are stating Yhwh sat by, passively watching as Homo neanderthalensis (who produced tools, jewelry, art, cared for their sick and elderly) succumbed to a genetic bottleneck at the very height of their sophistication.

          Are you prepared to ascribe that sort of callous brutality to the character of Yhwh/Jesus?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Now you are not talking about evolution anymore but judging God’s character. You are talking about the problem of evil which is a different subject.

        • john zande says:

          You raised the possibility, so don’t come crying to me.

          Please answer the question:

          Are you prepared to ascribe that sort of callous brutality to the character of Yhwh/Jesus?

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, of course not. But that’s another subject.

        • john zande says:

          No, it’s THIS subject. And again, you, Mel, raised the possibility, so deal with it.

          Those are facts of the evolutionary paradigm.

          So, you still wish to argue Yhwh/Jesus oversees the evolutionary paradigm, watching passively while mistake after mistake after mistake occur, choosing this moment, or that, in which to tinker by, perhaps, shaping the Hox and ParaHox gene clusters?

          Is that what you’re arguing?

        • john zande says:

          So, as you can see, your problem here is not simply the total and complete absence of evidence for your environmental/genetic tinkering god, Yhwh/Jesus, but you can’t even rationally (reasonably) defend your suggestion when that suggestion is superimposed over reality.

        • tildeb says:

          “That is a false dichotomy, Ark. It’s not choosing between evolution or a creator. There are many evolutionary biologists who are theists.”

          That’s a false dichotomy, Ark. It’s not choosing between pedophelia and the priesthood. There are many faithful priests who are pedophiles. See? No incompatibility at all. Jeez Louise: you have to be unreasonable to suggest there is a fundamental incompatibility.

    • Arkenaten says:

      Yes, science has TONS of evidence related to how and why life exists on this planet. But the question still remains … how did it all get started.

      Apologies. So, like Mel you are in fact no disputing evolution but are referring to the origin of life, yes?

    • tildeb says:

      Yeah, we do, Nan. It’s not opinion. It is an explanation that stands on its own merit utterly independent of anything you or I think about it. Evolution as an explanation of how life has developed over time fits better with everything we find in reality than any other scientific theory.

      Any other.

      Think about, Nan.

      So, to be consistent, your position is that it’s somehow reasonable that germs are doubtful explanation because “nothing is hard and fast.” It means you’re not really sure if you can step off a ten story roof and reliably and consistently fall because our explanation about gravity is even less “hard and fast.”. So we don’t really understand how our nuclear work because, you know, we just can’t according to Nan. Not really. Now, opinions are hard and fast, but these explanations? Sure, they have some degree of proof, but, you know, we don’t really know.

      And that’s utter bullshit. What you’re peddling, Nan is utter bullshit. You are a merchant of doubt in the service of superstitious nonsense, not on any merit, but on your desire to appear tolerant of idiocy. That’s all your kind of faitheist apologetics is: tolerating bullshit in the name of tolerance.

      We do know stuff, Nan, and we act on it all the time to success. So we build applications, therapies, and technologies on this basis. And these work. Every time. All the time. Everywhere. For everyone. Boy, oh… that’s not quite good enough for you, eh? Not enough wiggle room for bullshit to suit your tastes. And if that’s not a high enough standard for you to be considered knowledge, in your esteemed opinion, then absolutely nothing else can be.

      Nothing.

      And you don’t actually believe that, do you Nan? And you don;t believe it because you could not operate in this world if you did. And you operate, so…

      So my question to you is, why go along with this idiocy charade about somehow doubting evolution… unless you have skin in the game, unless you think it’s important to pretend it’s somehow okay, somehow reasonable, somehow to sell this doubt as if it had even a modicum of merit when it doesn’t? Why, Nan? Why be such a faitheist and pretend we don’t really know when, in fact, we do… as much as anything – and I mean anything – can be considered knowledge? So you can appear to be oh-so tolerant unlike those other dickheads who think reality deserves your respect more than some just so superstitious nonsense? Well, bully for you.

      • Nan says:

        Wow tildeb. I’m sure glad I live in this century and not the one where they threw people in dungeons and beat them for not agreeing with those in control.

        Seriously, I don’t feel I deserved your “tongue-lashing.” I DO believe in evolution … which, BTW (Ark), is connected to the origin of life because without a starting point, there can be no evolution. What I am saying (and I could be wrong as I don’t keep up on these things) is science has (as yet) been unable to discover that “starting point.”

        And let me be VERY clear here … I have no illusions that some supernatural entity had a hand in any of this.

        This is all I’m going to say. I refuse to be dragged any deeper into this back and forth bickering. I know what I believe and I’m comfortable with that. If someone wants to believe differently, then bully for them.

        • tildeb says:

          So then, why the nod to compatibility based on incompatible beliefs? Would you say to the schizophrenic that this six foot white rabbit named Harvey might be real because, well, we don’t really know for sure. This is what I’m criticizing because you are not being honest. Evolution is the most assured theory humanity has ever described and regularly produces more and more knowledge to effect and to pretend it is doubtful is deeply dishonest. In effect, what you are doing is exercising denialism, casting doubt where none exists on merit. And on matters of evolution, maybe not that big of deal. But it’s the SAME denialism used against advancing redress for climate change, the same denialism used to make public water supply unsafe to drink, the same denialism used to bring back preventable infections. It’s the dishonest thinking that goes into supporting denialism from someone who knows better than that that I am so roundly criticizing. You are better than this, Nan.

        • Nan says:

          tildeb, I like you. I think you’re a smart guy. But please stop telling me what I think or believe. If my comment didn’t set well with you, that’s your problem, not mine. In actuality, you made several assumptions that are inaccurate but I’m not going to take up anymore space on Mel’s blog to argue with you.

  5. misterkiddo456 says:

    Thanks Mel for being a great example of what it looks like to peacefully have conversations about the tough stuff. I wasn’t sure it would be possible. Also, I have to tip my hat to the alternate view points shared as they haven’t gone the typical batty level of aggressive I have seen in most places on the internet.

    • Mel Wild says:

      Thanks. 🙂 The “aggressive batty” is mostly on the Internet among zealots, not so much at the academic or professional level (with the exception of a few). I think these videos show that we can have a reasonable discussion with those we might even disagree with. The truth is, no one knows for certain on a lot of this stuff, so we need to not be so dogmatically rigid.

  6. “So, what you should say is this: evolutionary theory is wholly defined in, and by, randomness. Wholly. Wholly…..”

    I think the word Zande was looking for here was actually “Holy.” Just saying. 🙂

  7. John Branyan says:

    Hey Mel.
    I noticed the Windbag (sorry…John Zande) said:
    “You claim to not have a position on evolution, which means, by default, you accept evolutionary theory.”

    I recommend you respond with:
    “You claim to not have a position on the existence of supernatural reality, which means, by default, you accept supernatural theory.”

  8. Florian says:

    Mel, I admire your patience. I’ve been reading through this thread and am honestly shocked how people think it is okay to come to someone’s blog and rant on with accusations, based on assumptions, don’t listen one bit, and hide it behind some pseudo-intellectualism. Another proof how fundamentalism is not limited to religion, but can be applied to all schools of thought. Thanks for still having the guts to post, this is truly admirable…

    • john zande says:

      It’s a public blog. If Mel wants an echo chamber then he’s free to turn his blog to Private.

    • Mel Wild says:

      Hi Florian. I let them rant so that people can see it for themselves…on display for all to see. They are a case in point for what you said, proving that dogmatic fundamentalism is not limited to religion. Although I would add that their scientism is an antitheist religion. They just smuggle their metaphysical worldview under the guise of their pseudo-intellectual science.

  9. John Branyan says:

    Hey Mel,

    John Zande (sorry…Windbag) isn’t prepared to answer his own questions. In my mind, that disqualifies him from assessing your responses to those questions.

    I’ll offer a little “Atheist Theory” for your consideration. The only thing heathens hate more than God is questions about their beliefs. This is because they claim to have ‘no beliefs’ about God while simultaneously holding the belief that God doesn’t exist. Pressing this issue makes them angry. They will call you names and insist that you don’t understand the definition of atheism.

    Rather than trying to convince them that they’re wrong, it’s easier (and way more fun) to make them answer a question. You don’t even need to make up a question! Just turn their own questions back at them. Atheistic relativism is a useless noise (or “wind” in JZ’s case). It blows and blows and blows but says nothing.

    • John Branyan says:

      UPDATE: For example…
      Notice in my exchange with JZ, I write an original statement. I just copy and paste his own words. He is LITERALLY talking to himself.

      • john zande says:

        Says the guy literally replying to himself…

        • John Branyan says:

          Good idea! Let’s duplicate your stupidity here so people don’t need to scroll up and find it.

          So you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where mutations are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

        • john zande says:

          You keep repeating my question to Mel.

          Why?

          Do you want me to ask it to you, so you can answer it? OK, if that makes you feel included…

          So you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where mutations are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

        • John Branyan says:

          No. I’m demonstrating that you are incapable of answering the question you asked Mel.

          In case you’ve forgotten, it’s:

          So you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where mutations are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

        • john zande says:

          If I doubted the basis of it, why would I write it?

          If you want to be included, which it appears you do want to be, then feel free to answer it yourself:

          Do you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where mutations (and the environment in general) are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

        • John Branyan says:

          Do you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where mutations (and the environment in general) are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

        • john zande says:

          If I doubted the basis of it, why would I write it?

          If you want to be included, which it appears you do want to be, then feel free to answer it yourself:

          So you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where mutations (and the environment in general) are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

        • John Branyan says:

          And there we have it.
          Let me summarize what has happened here:

          John Zande constructed a question that he is incapable of answering himself. This invalidates his question and demonstrates why JZ has earned the nickname, “Windbag”. He doesn’t ever say anything. He just makes a lot of noise.

          I predict he will now respond in some fashion but it WILL NOT BE with an answer to the question. I will acknowledge his response with a “like”. Then I’ll leave JZ to sputter and fume.

        • john zande says:

          Answer, Yes… Or in other words, If I doubted the basis of the question, why would I ask it?

          Clear now? Good.

          Now for you:

          Do you accept that human beings are an entirely unintended product of an entirely unguided process, where mutations (and the environment in general) are random, meaning they are not adaptively directed, not goal-oriented?

        • John Branyan says:

          Answer, No.

          Clear now? Good.

          Now for you:

          How does “natural selection” happen in a system that is “entirely unguided” and “random”?

        • john zande says:

          Mutations are random, meaning not goal-orientated, not adaptively directed. Most are harmful to an organism. Many are neutral. A few are advantageous. Selection occurs in accordance to usefulness of the non-deleterious mutations within the environment at that time. If survivability is increased, that organism lives longer, giving it greater opportunity to reproduce.

          Now, please demonstrate the guidance you believe exists. Was, for example, the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event intended?

        • John Branyan says:

          “If survivability is increased, that organism lives longer, giving it greater opportunity to reproduce.”

          So the process isn’t random. It’s guided by survivability. Now, please explain what naturalistic mechanism decides which random mutations are better suited to survivability.

        • john zande says:

          utations are random, meaning not goal-orientated, not adaptively directed.

          Read that again and again, as many times as required, OK.

        • John Branyan says:

          I would say, “Mutations are the result of God’s omnipotent will.” Repeating that statement over and over doesn’t make it true.

          Then, I would answer my own question with, “An infinitely intelligent mind guides the natural selection process.”

          I want you to explain how natural selection happens without intelligence. Should be a piece of cake.

        • john zande says:

          I would say, “Mutations are the result of God’s omnipotent will.”

          From the 2012 paper: Mutation Induced Extinction in Finite Populations: Lethal Mutagenesis and Lethal Isolation

          “Most spontaneous mutations hurt organismal fitness, e.g. by destabilizing proteins.”

          So, you’re saying Yhwh’s intent is to cause harm?

        • John Branyan says:

          Are you saying Yhwh actually exists?

        • john zande says:

          I would say, “Mutations are the result of God’s omnipotent will.”

          From the 2012 paper: Mutation Induced Extinction in Finite Populations: Lethal Mutagenesis and Lethal Isolation

          “Most spontaneous mutations hurt organismal fitness, e.g. by destabilizing proteins.”

          So, you’re saying Yhwh’s intent is to cause harm?

        • John Branyan says:

          Done already?
          That didn’t take long…

          To be clear:
          The intelligence guiding the process of natural selection is Yhwh.

          I’ve said it before, Windbag. You’re no atheist!

        • john zande says:

          I would say, “Mutations are the result of God’s omnipotent will.”

          From the 2012 paper: Mutation Induced Extinction in Finite Populations: Lethal Mutagenesis and Lethal Isolation

          “Most spontaneous mutations hurt organismal fitness, e.g. by destabilizing proteins.”

          So, you’re saying Yhwh’s intent is to cause harm?

        • john zande says:

          From the Genetic Literacy Project: “Most mutations in the human genome are recent and probably harmful”

          Joshua Akey of the University of Washington … estimated that more than 80 percent are probably harmful to us.

          So, you’re saying Yhwh’s intent is to cause harm?

        • john zande says:

          And there it is… That awkward silence after the apologist realises reality has ruined their pantomime.

  10. John Branyan says:

    Hey Mel,

    One more thing…

    We’ve stopped engaging with Doug (Arkenaten) directly because he refuses to admit that his comments have “order and meaning”. He will keep saying things (insults and stuff) trying to goad me to respond. But I won’t. If he can’t ascribe value to his words, why should we?

    • Mel Wild says:

      JohnB. Ark loves to goad by asking questions but has shown that he cannot answer a question. It usually ends with some form of belligerent name-calling and swearing at me.

      I try to keep it civil and respectful here but these guys obviously don’t care about that, so I let them rant. The rest is self-evident.

      • John Branyan says:

        Your methods are effective.
        They rage about you all the time in their echo chambers.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Have you ever actually asked an intelligent question?
        I cannot honestly recall.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Again, my case in point.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Meaning you haven’t, then.
          So go on …. ask one.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Which only proves that you don’t listen to anyone but yourself. For instance, how would Hamlet provide you with “evidence” for Shakespeare?

        • Arkenaten says:

          I suggested that you ask an intelligent question.

          intelligent
          ɪnˈtɛlɪdʒ(ə)nt/Submeter
          adjective
          having or showing intelligence, especially of a high level.

          Furthermore, you never responded when we this was first raised, remember? And both John and Tildeb gave you perfectly acceptable answers.
          Not what I would have said, but nevertheless …

        • Mel Wild says:

          Furthermore, you never responded when we this was first raised, remember? And both John and Tildeb gave you perfectly acceptable answers.

          You mean, “I don’t know.” Yeah, that’s a perfectly acceptable non-answer. The fact that you don’t even get the point of the question is interesting.

          So, what’s your answer. How would Hamlet provide you with “evidence” for Shakespeare?

        • Arkenaten says:

          Did you answer the proviso question I posed when you first raised this topic?

        • Mel Wild says:

          You see, you simply can’t answer the question. You keep deflecting. Thanks for making my point.

        • Arkenaten says:

          So I take it you did not answer the proviso question. And you make your own point as and when you feel lie it, have you noticed?
          So go on, answer the question and I’ll answer yours …

        • Arkenaten says:

          You never had a case to rest, Mel, and you don’t even understand why.

        • john zande says:

          For instance, how would Hamlet provide you with “evidence” for Shakespeare?

          I’ve already answered that for you. All he has to do is to stop saying his lines, then observe as the actors around him keep delivering theirs, completely out of context. That, or he could simply sit down and refuse to follow his stage directions. Or he could start killing everyone, or himself, burn down the sets, etc.

        • Mel Wild says:

          And that would prove Shakespeare how?

        • john zande says:

          It would prove they were inside an authored work.

        • Mel Wild says:

          How so? How would they know his insubordination wasn’t part of the script? Hamlet’s anti-Shakespeare friends would just mock him and rationalize it away.

        • john zande says:

          Conduct experiments. Your analogy doesn’t work. There are any number of ways he can determine for himself, and demonstrate to others, that they are inside a fixed play running like a machine, only to repeat itself.

        • Mel Wild says:

          They could only theorize, but no physical experiment would prove they are in a play, and it’s still not evidence for Shakespeare, only that they’re life seems scripted for some unknown reason. That’s the point of the question. To demand scientific evidence is a category mistake.

        • john zande says:

          Nonsense. Sitting in the one spot, refusing to act/say lines as the play goes on around them, only to REPEAT, again and again and again is solid proof.

          Come up with a better analogy, Mel. I’m sure if you put your mind to it you can.

        • tildeb says:

          JZ, because of overwhelming evidence, I have concluded that anything anyone can say to this man – including your own perceptive questions and troubling observations – that does not align with his religious beliefs nor support his religious claims for the way things ARE (not just making up Just So stories for why, as he continues to obtusely insist) is as water off a duck’s back. Nothing you say to him matters… in the least. No key point you raise is addressed. No counter argument is correctly assessed. He simply repeats well worn apologetic arguments that I have dismantled and shown to be unsupported by fact but supported wholly by ill-informed and very poor reasoning and resurrects them time after time as easily as he does his superstitious nonsense contrary to reality. The man has not a shred of intellectual integrity. He’s just a spigot, an automaton spouting apolgetics as if they do anything other than demonstrate the paucity of his position. Branyan is welcome to roll in the muck with him and claim apologetic fellowship. But neither can think well if at all when it comes to their ability to be coherent.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Nonsense, yourself, JohnZ. All Hamlet would be doing is demonstrating anti-social behavior to those around him. You haven’t even addressed the issue yet. This only shows you don’t even understand the analogy.

        • john zande says:

          Yes, you’re right.

          Hamlet sitting quietly down, watching the beginning, the middle, and end of the play come and go ten times, in the exact same sequence every time, with the exact same dialogue every time, would teach him nothing.

          My apologies. I’m not sure how I missed that, Mel.

    • Arkenaten says:

      Hey, Mister Z, are you angry at Mel’s god?
      Mel seems to think you are very very upset at the biblical character Yahweh/Jesus the Nazarene.

  11. Arkenaten says:

    @ JB.

    Your methods are effective.
    They rage about you all the time in their echo chambers.

    Whereas, we laugh at you.

  12. John Branyan says:

    Hey Mel,

    One other thing…

    John Zande isn’t actually an atheist. He concedes that Yhwh is the intelligence responsible for guiding evolution. Make no mistake, Windbag is VERY angry at Yhwh for the way He created the universe. But I’m going to give JZ the benefit of a doubt and assume his wrath isn’t aimed at an entity that doesn’t exist. (Only crazy people do stuff like that…)

    • Mel Wild says:

      You’re right. JohnZ is obviously just very angry at God. What sane person would be so angry at someone or something that doesn’t exist? I will also give him the benefit of the doubt.

      • John Branyan says:

        That’s what Jesus would do!

      • Arkenaten says:

        I feel confident is saying that John Z is not angry at all at your god as he does not believe in gods – yours’ or anyone else’s.
        However, he probably gets quite pissed off at the poor delusional fools who promote gods as being real,especially where severe abuse is concerned, in all its forms.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, Ark. He’s clearly angry at God. All of his points are loaded with animosity toward God that he blames for every bad thing that happens.

        • Arkenaten says:

          How can anyone be angry at a narrative construct?
          I have explained he might get pissed at the delusional fools who promote that their gods are real but he wouldn’t get angry at something make beleive.
          That wold make his as idiotic as those promoting such ridiculous beliefs.

          I mean, do you get angry at Quetzalcoatl or Hanuman, or Zeus?

        • Mel Wild says:

          That’s really funny, Ark. Because no one expends as much time and energy as you guys do trying to refute Zeus or anything else imaginary. Methinks the anti-theist doth protest too much.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Actually, Mel, and I realise that it is very odd an’ all, but you just don’t see that many people – none that I am aware of at any rate – promoting Zeus or Quetzalcoatl these days.
          Maybe if there were a bunch of dicks trying to insist that we teach that worship of Zeus should be considered part of one’s life or one might end up in Hades then ”us guys” would probably get pissed off and say something.
          But those clever Greeks got over their gods, didn’t they?
          How come you never got over yours’ ?

  13. John Branyan says:

    Hey Mel,

    One more thing…

    Apparently, Tildeb isn’t an atheist either! He scolded JZ as follows:

    “Everybody knows you have the wrong god. Your anger should be directed towards Tlaloc. I mean, come on. Cricky.”

    You are making theists out of everybody today!

  14. Pingback: Making Sense of Randomness in Evolution | In My Father's House

  15. Gavin says:

    Hi Mel. I’m new to your blog and stumbled upon this article. I read a post you did on the orphan mindset and will be reading some more of it.

    Below is my reason for my comment;
    “And, in this case, I don’t think evolutionary theory is a threat to our faith or to the authority of Scripture, although it could be a challenge to how we have interpreted the text.”

    I think the theory of evolution as it is being taught and evangelised is a direct threat to Scripture and the salvation of people. The theory has no place for an intelligent, involved Creator whatsoever. All the death and destruction we see in nature are seen as ‘good’ (survival of the fittest etc) and needed, and not the effects of the ‘fall’ of mankind. This is some serious stuff and in the league of calling darkness light. If Genesis is not true or cannot be trusted then why believe anything else. Especially as Genesis is written as history and not some other form.

    I also started off believing it was a non issue but I’ve been convinced otherwise after reading some more about this topic from creation.com. I suggest you browse it sometime.

    God bless you and your family!

    • Mel Wild says:

      Thanks for your comments, Gavin. I’m familiar with creation.com and other sites like discovery.org (Intelligent Design). I think you need to read all sides on this issue by Christians who are scientists (others like BioLogos.com, etc.). Again, I’m not for or against the latest theory of evolution. Besides, there’s several internal debates going on about the depth of natural selection and genomes (formalism vs. functionalism, etc.) within evolutionary circles. It’s definitely a moving target, not as cut-and-dried as its enthusiasts make it out to be. There are certainly lots of holes in evolutionary theory, especially for making claims for origins or replacing a creator. And it has been turned into a worldview, a secular “religion” (scientism) by Dawkins and radical anti-theists. I just don’t think whatever turns out to be true is a threat to Christianity. The early church, and later church fathers, were not threatened by science.

      And we can make the opposite mistake by trying to turn the Bible into a science textbook. It wasn’t written with that in mind. We might end up defending something God never told us to defend.

      Nonetheless, you have a valid point. We shouldn’t just jump on the latest bandwagon of popular science, but my point is that we also shouldn’t consider science our enemy. My faith isn’t threatened by it, one way or the other.

      God bless you, too!

      • tildeb says:

        We’ve been over this Mel. Yet here you are once again peddling bullshit, peddling intentional deceit, peddling intentional lies. What is wrong with you? You know there’s a commandment in Exodus against doing just this kind of peddling, don’t you? Why the need to lie, to keep on lying?

        • john zande says:

          I saw his lie, but just couldn’t be bothered calling him on it… again.

          The man obviously can’t help himself. He’s just a compulsive liar.

        • Mel Wild says:

          So, exactly how am I lying? Because I disagree with you?

        • tildeb says:

          No, Mel. It has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with you and how you misrepresent and tell lies about evolution. Over and over and over in spite of repeated corrections. You never correct. Ever. You just spew the same old apologetic garbage every time. That’s lying Mel. That’s deceitful, Mel. That’s intentional misrepresentation of science, Mel. You are breaking a commandment with intention to break the commandment for your own apologetic ends.

          Go reread your reply again. It full of deceit and intentional deceit. You do not tell the truth intentionally but weave a Just So story about evolution to appear neutral about it, to appear like it’s not you spewing this garbage but various sources who spew this garbage you recycle over and over and over. But you don’t do that about germ theory or cell theory or nuclear theory. Ever. But you continue to do it about evolutionary theory.

          Why, Mel? Because you have an agenda different than understanding this science, different from informing others about this science, different from applying this understanding about this science. You do it strictly for religious reasons. That’s not ‘neutral’, Mel: that’s lying.

          I’ve explained over and over and over how and why you offer deceit regarding evolutionary theory and now you simply spew the same garbage with changing one tad or titch of your apologetic tropes. So, once again, you demonstrate no regard for understanding but an overwhelming urge to lie for Jesus and think well of yourself for doing so.

          It’s not about me. It’s not about my understanding being different from your understanding. It’s about you telling lies and then, rather correcting your errors in understanding pretending it’s a problem I have recognizing and exposing the lies you continue to tell and sell.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Yes, it is all about you, Tildeb. That’s why you’re here in the first place. You’ve apparently appointed yourself to be the ultimate authority on everything. Obviously, by your overreaction I’m blaspheming your religion but, sorry, I don’t just automatically buy everything you tell me. I reserve judgment. What are you afraid of, anyway? And, no, I don’t have an agenda against evolutionary theory, but I don’t accept your dogmatic scientism either. I read all sides on it. I’m just telling it like I see it at this point. You may even be right, I don’t really care one way or the other. It has no effect whatsoever on my faith.

        • tildeb says:

          “Again, I’m not for or against the latest theory of evolution.”

          Yes you are against it by painting it as something other than a fundamental pillar of modern biology. Just by inserting the slimy word ‘latest’ you are trying to paint this established theory as something in flux. It isn’t. This is an intentional and deceitful portrayal of evolutionary theory by you.

          “Besides, there’s several internal debates going on about the depth of natural selection and genomes (formalism vs. functionalism, etc.) within evolutionary circles. It’s definitely a moving target, not as cut-and-dried as its enthusiasts make it out to be.”

          No, it’s not. What you’re introducing are the quibbles, the debates, about how various aspects of evolution work. Again, another slimy word introduced by you for those who do understand the difference between the core theory and these aspects of it: ‘enthusiasts’, as if this fundamental understanding were nothing more than a hobby some people, some scientists, some biologists, might decide to partake in. That’s utter bullshit. Evolution is a change in the gene pool of a population over time. A gene is a hereditary unit that can be passed on unaltered for many generations. The gene pool is the set of all genes in a species or population.There is nothing in the theory that has changed. There is nothing in the theory that is debatable. Evolutionary theory has only been bolstered by the ‘latest’ addition, meaning genetics, and it has become a fundamental pillar of bringing together under a single theoretical umbrella disparate areas of biology. That’s why it is said that nothing in biology makes sense without this fundamental understanding… a fundamental understanding you do not have, you will not learn, you refuse to portray accurately. This definition as you’ve been informed by many commentators is evolution properly understood. But you continue to portray it as if it is somehow being altered repeatedly when it is not. It. Is. Not. You are being intentionally deceitful here and you will not correct your error, you will not stop spreading your misunderstanding, your deceit, your dishonesty, your lies about evolutionary theory, but continue to claim ‘scientism’ of anyone who bothers to correct you. That’s dishonest of you, and intentionally dishonest It’s execrable, Mel, because you are absolutely determined to continue to lie and deceive and spread falsehoods about evolution.

          There is no debate about evolutionary theory in biology. You either understand it or you do not. You do not. It’s not about ‘enthusiasts’ any more than one is a gravity ‘enthusiast’ when one tries to repeatedly explain to an anti-gravitationalist why we can’t just fly upwards and levitate by will power. You introduce quibbles about specifics in mechanisms. You misrepresent then these quibbles time and time again to be what they are not, debate about evolution. Again, there is no scientific debate. You keep telling lies here. You keep on misrepresenting the theory with debates about mechanisms. You’ve been told about this oiver and over by different commentators and you don;t correct your errors. EVER. This is intentional dishonesty on your part.

          “There are certainly lots of holes in evolutionary theory, especially for making claims for origins or replacing a creator.”

          No, there aren’t Mel. You are the one creating the holes… by lying, by deceiving, by being intentionally dishonest, by spreading your misunderstanding without ever correcting these deplorable methods, correcting the unpardonable errors you maintain, correcting your misunderstandings. You, Mel. You.

          Origins, for the umpteenth time, have no part in evolutionary theory, you dolt. Yet you keep saying it does. This is a blatant lie, inserted by YOU, Mel, told by YOU over and over and over. You will not correct this even though you know you are intentionally lying, in spite of many comentators reiterating that origins have no place in evolutionary theory. You’ve been told, and told, and told but you just don’t care. You just keep going back to this lie over and over and over.

          To this compilation of your deceit, of your ongoing lying, you wave it all away when you dishonestly say, “it has been turned into a worldview, a secular “religion” (scientism) by Dawkins and radical anti-theists.” No, Mel, it’s just recognizing and understanding the precepts of evolution… something you don’t have, you don;t want to have, you refuse to have. That’s not the doings of anti-theists; that’s you, Mel, insisting that being called out for intentionally lying and spreading bullshit about evolution is the problem. No, Mel; you are the problem. You.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Again, by your verbose rant, I have obviously committed the unpardonable sin against your god. Now you know what it’s like when you say totally ignorant things about Christianity that you know nothing of. Pretty upsetting, isn’t it?

          I won’t say you’re lying about what I said here, I will be gracious and say you misunderstood some of what I said. I was not making the point that evolutionary theory itself was in flux, it certainly is the core of biology. But there are aspects of it that apparently are. I only know what I’ve read about it from various sources and not everything is set in stone. Your problem is with them, not me. I sincerely don’t care one way or the other.

          But we’ll see if any aspect of evolutionary theory changes at all in the next 100 years, then you will be right to accuse me.

          And when Dawkins and his ilk use their Neo-Darwinism to replace the need for God, it becomes an alternate creation myth (without the need for a creator), which you’re right, is not part of evolutionary theory, but it’s part of your scientism.

          When I used the word “enthusiasts” I was talking about people like you and JohnZ, not actual biologists. I hold them in high regard. I was talking about the Internet wannabes, unless you happen to actually be an evolutionary biologist or paleontologist, which you have not revealed that you are. You are just an avatar as far as I know. But your pretentiousness certainly makes you out like you are the expert in the field.

          I tell you what, Tildeb. I won’t give my admittedly ignorant perspective on evolutionary theory if you guys promise to never say another word about religion or God. Fair enough?

        • john zande says:

          You hold biologists in “high regard”, and yet 93% of those very people thoroughly reject all notions of your god/gods. (Larson, Edward J.; Larry Witham (1998). “Leading scientists still reject God”)

          And holding them in high regard, Mel, would mean not lying about their work, and believing them when they say, without deviation, that evolution is unguided, meaning not goal-orientated, not adaptively directed.

        • Mel Wild says:

          I didn’t say biologists necessarily knew anything about God or theology. They obviously don’t. But they are experts in biology. I can respect that. It doesn’t follow that they have any credibility with matters of theology.

          I’m not lying, John. If anything, I may be wrong, but I don’t just take your word for it. You cannot prove beyond a doubt that it’s completely undirected or accidental. You can only say it appears that way. If you say you can, you are the one lying.

        • john zande says:

          I didn’t say biologists necessarily knew anything about God or theology. They obviously don’t.

          Or, they have indeed explored the option, like most of us, and found it to be absurd when superimposed over reality… rejecting it based on the evidence.

          But of course, that doesn’t fit with the pantomime you need to maintain.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Or, they have indeed explored the option, like most of us, and found it to be absurd when superimposed over reality… rejecting it based on the evidence.

          Of course, because you will believe what you want to believe about something you cannot prove or disprove with scientific “evidence.” So, you just keep your head stuck in the proverbial sand and pretend the cosmos just created itself from absolutely nothing, then just hand-wave it away and say, “I don’t know.” That’s your “pantomime,” John.

        • john zande says:

          All the mistakes are not evidence?

          Interesting.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Evidence? You guys keep saying we have no evidence. You need to make up your mind. Yes, interesting contradictions.

        • john zande says:

          If you take the evolutionary paradigm, and try to draw conclusions from that data, while positing a designer, then you arrive one of two possibilities:

          1) a thoroughly incompetent designer, or
          2) a malicious one who finds pleasure in suffering and insecurity.

          Do either of these fit neatly with your characterisation of the Middle Eastern god the Pentateuch, Yhwh?

        • john zande says:

          So Mel, do either of these conclusions fit neatly with your characterisation of the Middle Eastern god the Pentateuch, Yhwh?

        • tildeb says:

          “I won’t say you’re lying about what I said here, I will be gracious and say you misunderstood some of what I said.”

          I copied what you said. So, sure, pretend that maybe I might be lying quoting what you said but that you’re willing to extend to me the courtesy of possibly quoting you correctly. How very gracious of you. Good grief.

          “I was not making the point that evolutionary theory itself was in flux, it certainly is the core of biology. But there are aspects of it that apparently are.”

          Yes, you were, that evolution itself is debatable when it is not. You even say, “I’m not for or against the latest theory of evolution.” So quit lying. How about, “I’m not for or against the latest theory of germs.” It’s such a stupid and arrogant thing to say about some established science, pretending you stand in judgement of it.

          “I only know what I’ve read about it from various sources and not everything is set in stone.”

          You have set out to find internet support from sciencey sounding people – susrprise, surprise, you’ve found them! – who might allow you to suggest what isn’t true, that the theory of evolution is debatable when it’s not, is subject to ongoing changes when it is not, that creationism isn’t incompatible with natural and unguided genetic changes when it is incompatible. Again, the suggestion that this pillar of biology is in flux when it isn’t. You reject any and all scientific authority if it disturbs your religious agenda but will use what you can if itr appears to support it. Thatere’s the dishonesty hard at work because you don’t care whatsoever about what is true, don;t care how much warping and distorting of science you have to do to achieve this agenda, don’t care at all about correcting your blatant lying, blatant misrepresentations, blatant deceit and dishonesty to spread your apologetic bullshit about evolution. What’s true doesn’t matter, what’s honest is outside your wheelhouse. Your goal is convince others that there’s a compatibility between incompatible ideas and so you have to use these destructive shaving tools to make your square pegs of religious apologetics seem to fit the round holes of reality in the form of ‘science’ when the science isn clearly square!

          “Your problem is with them, not me. I sincerely don’t care one way or the other.”

          No, my problem is with how you promote through lying and deceiving and distorting good science in the name of religious apologetics. You own that, Mel, because that’s what you do. That is the problem. That’s the subject for my commentary. You care enough about religious apologetics to do these execrable postings about evolution and compatibility. You care very much to try to get science to be your ally when it is clearly adversarial by results you just don’t like.

        • john zande says:

          “I’m not for or against the latest theory of evolution.”

          Yes, that line was especially cute

        • Mel Wild says:

          So, you’re saying the theory never gets adjusted? It’s exactly as Darwin proposed it. It’s in its completed and perfect form.
          Right.

        • john zande says:

          The Theory has never changed.

          Our understanding of the mechanisms of the change in populations has only strengthened the theory.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Well adding genetics to Darwin’s theory certainly made a major adjustment, for one example.
          I’m talking about adjustments. So, no adjustments ever happen? In other words, we now know everything there is to know about it.

        • john zande says:

          No Mel, you said “latest theory,” as an attempted slur.

          Just. Stop. Your. Lying.

        • Mel Wild says:

          I’ll stop slurring your religion if you stop slurring mine. Fair enough?

        • john zande says:

          So presenting facts (facts that happen to contradict your religion) is now a slur?

          I see.

        • Mel Wild says:

          So presenting facts (facts that happen to contradict your religion) is now a slur?
          I see.

          So, I was slurring your “religion” because evolutionary theory has not changed at all since Darwin? And it will never be adjusted in any way in the future, too. I see.

        • tildeb says:

          Mel, you make your rather profound ignorance of science known with this kind of comment. A theory is either explanatory or overturned. It does not morph. Either the explanation accounts for the evidence or it does not. Genetics demonstrated the profound insight the theory offered to how life changes over time. It didn’t weaken the theory but made it far more robust. That’s why when you encounter a scientific theory like evolution, you need to sit up and pay attention because it has already gone through the most extreme critical scientific examination we can bring to bear; that’s why it is a theory. By grabbing hold of the kind of quibbles about aspects of a theory, the detailed mechanisms by which causal effect is explained in the body of the Theory, and inflating them as you do to indicate your presumption that there really is a high level of uncertainty about its explanatory power – as if you’re raising a relevant point when you are not – demonstrates your profound ignorance of what a scientific theory means, how it comes about, what it is, how it is then used, why it not weakened by your incredible juvenile attempts to paint it the way you would like it to be as full of uncertainty as if that painting by you had the support of scientific merit from others.

          No, no, no.

          You’ve got it wrong!

          Again!

          You’re not alone, Mel. The vast majority of Americans don;t get it, either. That’s what happens when we allow religious stupidity and ignorance to hold sway over education. We end up with a vast majority of people who, like you, really don’t grasp basic scientific fundamentals. And it’s not the fault of scientific educators; it’s the fault of religious apologists like you who think you really, really, really do have a point determining by religious credentials and reverence scientific merit.

          Guess what? You don’t! But on behalf of 80% of Americans who remain profoundly ignorant about evolution, congratulations. You have helped maintain this scientific ignorance. Well done. God will be so happy.

        • john zande says:

          OK, tell me Mel, how has the evolutionary thesis (the change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations) changed since Darwin?

          You seem to think it has, so tell me…

        • Mel Wild says:

          Now you changing what I said and what I meant by my original comment. So my question to you was, has evolutionary theory changed or been adjusted in any way since Darwin? Simple question. Yes or no.

        • john zande says:

          For the final time, no, the theory has not changed. Not one bit. It has only become more robust with our increasing knowledge of the mechanisms through which change occurs.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Then it’s been adjusted, adapted.

        • john zande says:

          No Mel, the central thesis of evolution by natural selection has not changed one bit. Darwin knew nothing of genes and alleles (the units of selection), but he understood that change occurred through generations. Mendel’s work merely confirmed Darwin’s thesis, much like Eddington’s study of the 1919 eclipse confirmed Einstein’s thesis.

          But, as you seem to think you know so much about this stuff, tell me: what is the Theory of Evolution and how has its thesis changed since Darwin.

          Tell me what the latest theory is, and how it is different from some earlier theory…

        • Mel Wild says:

          But I never meant that it changed into being something else. You keep saying that. I meant that new things are added, like genetics, etc.

          Unless you’re saying nothing will ever be added (no adaptations) since Darwin or in the future?

        • john zande says:

          “Latest theory”

          Stop trying to cover your lies and deliberate deception.

          Just stop.

        • Mel Wild says:

          @Tildeb.
          Now, you are lying. So, actual scientists who believe in God are just sciencey sounding people? That’s rich. Whatever.

          Again, I will stop giving my admittedly ignorant perspective on evolutionary theory when you stop saying anything about religion or God.

        • tildeb says:

          “When I used the word “enthusiasts” I was talking about people like you and JohnZ, not actual biologists. I hold them in high regard.”

          Another clear lie.

          Who do you think has taken religious apologists lying about evolution to task? Evolutionary biologists. There are your ‘anti-theists’. There are your ‘enthusiasts’. The core group of active New Atheists are very much evolutionary biologists whose science is targeted and vilified by religious apologists and they are sick and tired of being treated this way by people like you.

          And no matter what they say about evolution, no matter to what pains and extent they go to inform your understanding of evolution, you disregard them utterly on the basis of aligning with your religious apologetics. You do not learn from them. You do not listen to what they say. You intentionally distort what they do say. So it’s a lie when you take on someone like Dawkins and think his knowledge of evolutionary biology is suddenly a ‘worldview’. It’s not. His knowledge is much, much deeper than your own on this subject that you think yourself perfectly suited to deny and distort.

          So here’s a little experiment for you, Mel: try doing that to everything your wife says and then claim that you hold what she says in high regard. Let’s see how far you get with that bullshit.

        • Mel Wild says:

          So, Mr. Avatar, are you an evolutionary biologist or paleontologist? What is your expertise? Otherwise, you are an enthusiast.

          And biologists like Dawkins are brilliant in biology but are horrendous at theology. Why should I listen to a single thing they say about God? They should stick to what they know something about and stop being so pretentious.

        • tildeb says:

          It wouldn’t matter, would it Mel? You say lies about evolution – and claim it has nothing to do with your religious beliefs because they are so gall darned compatible, donchaknow – and then claim you don’t have to listen to anything anyone has to say – especially non believing biologists – about evolution because… wait for it… they (unlike you) don’t know enough about God!

          Oh, that’s so rich.

      • Gavin says:

        Hi Mel.

        Thanks for your reply and sharing your resources.

        I agree wholeheartedly. We have nothing to fear because the Truth will set us free and we should read Scripture as God intended.

        May we all grow in giving and receiving grace until the Lord returns.

        The bless you and keep you…

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