Making Sense of Randomness in Evolution

In my last post we had a lengthy discussion about whether evolution shows that the biological process is totally random, accidental, and unguided. I thought these two video clips would help clear up some confusion over the subject for us who are committed Christians but laymen when it comes to biology. 

The first clip is a short one from BioLogos Foundation described as follows:

“The Distinctions” series — featuring biologists Sean Carroll and Kerry Fulcher, Smithsonian Human Origins Program director Rick Potts, and Old Testament scholar John Walton — we look at the concept of randomness. While it is understood by many simply to mean blind, undirected and purposeless, in truth, randomness is far more complex and awe-inspiring than this overly-simplified definition.”

They talk about what is meant by randomness, that it doesn’t necessarily mean purposelessness, and that evolution is not entirely a random process. Rick Potts, Director, Smithsonian Human Origins Program, said this about it:

“There’s a lot of information out there that tries to redefine science and redefine evolution in ways that are simply untenable. For example, the idea that evolution is only a random process doesn’t make any sense to scientists.”

As Sean B. Carroll said, what’s not random is the process of natural selection.

Another point the video makes is the misconception we may have as creationists when we think of creation as a one-time event in the past rather than as an on-going process that’s actually more profound and breathtaking and beautiful. Here’s the first clip.

The second clip is longer but just as interesting. But because it’s longer I will outline it for you and provide links so you can skip ahead if you wish.

Ard Louis is a professor of theoretical physics at Oxford where he leads an interdisciplinary research group studying problems on the border between chemistry, physics and biology. He gives an interesting talk here about metaphors and confusing terms used in evolutionary theory. This is very helpful if you’re like me and not involved in this world.

Louis begins by talking about how he got involved in biology and his work with self-assembling viruses and bacteria and explains some of the metaphors used to help understand the commonality in genes between species, what genes actually do and what makes us different. Then Louis goes into the three ways that “evolution” is talked about and common misconceptions starting here.

The first way is evolution as natural history and how that wouldn’t have conflicted with what the early church believed about the creation story starting here.

Louis then talks about evolution as a mechanism for change over time starting here.

The third kind of evolution he talks about is evolution as a big picture worldview (scientism) starting here. It’s scientism that gives anti-theists like Dawkins and Hitchens an alternate worldview to religion. As Louis puts it, these anti-theists “engage in a naïve and populist “Natural Theology”—extracting knowledge about God from looking at the natural world.” They smuggle in their scientistic worldview, making conclusive statements under the guise of science in order to displace “God” with their own creation narrative (that doesn’t need a creator).

Louis gives an example of classic scientism using Francis Crick’s “Nothing Buttery” analogy and shows how his reductionism is self-refuting here.

Another example of scientism’s purveyors smuggling their worldview in when trying to extract meaning from nature is shown with a statement by Richard Dawkins from his book, The Selfish Gene here.

The most interesting and relevant part of Louis’s talk is where he covers what is meant by the word “random” in evolution starting here. This is one of those loaded words because some equate it with purposelessness or having no direction of any kind, which is not necessarily the case.

Louis gives examples in biology where he shows that to call it “random” is really a misnomer and confusing (a better technical term would be “stochastic optimization”). Here’s what he said:

“It turns out that that process [stochastic process] is the most efficient way of solving high-dimensional problems. So, given that that’s the way the world works, it’s not that surprising that if God were to create the world He would use the stochastic process….If God were to create a world that makes itself, that would be the most efficient way to do it.”

Louis finishes by talking about the non-random variations with natural selection starting here.

Here’s the whole video.

 

About Mel Wild

God's favorite (and so are you), a son and a father, happily married to the same beautiful woman for 42 years. We have three incredible adult children. My passion is pursuing the Father's heart in Christ and giving it away to others. My favorite pastime is being iconoclastic and trailblazing the depths of God's grace. I'm also senior pastor of Cornerstone Church in Wisconsin.
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199 Responses to Making Sense of Randomness in Evolution

  1. john zande says:

    Random simply means not goal-orientated, not adaptively directed.

    Most mutations are harmful to an organism. Many are neutral. A few are advantageous. They are not advantageous because they were planned. They are advantageous because they fit the conditions.

    Selection occurs in accordance to usefulness of the non-deleterious mutations within the environment at that time. If survivability is increased, that organism lives longer, giving it greater opportunity to reproduce.

    It’s really not complicated.

    • Mel Wild says:

      Random simply means not goal-orientated, not adaptively directed.

      But if it’s better to call it a stochastic process instead of simply a random process, it doesn’t necessarily follow that it’s totally unguided or that’s it’s not ultimately goal-oriented. As Louis said, “If God were to create a world that makes itself, that would be the most efficient way to do it.”

      • john zande says:

        Louis doesn’t give a single biological example.

        “If God were to create a world that makes itself, that would be the most efficient way to do it.”

        With an 80% harmful ratio to useful? You call that effecient?

        If the intent is to cause harm, then great, job well done.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Single biological example of what?

        • john zande says:

          Louis finishes by talking about the non-random variations with natural selection

        • Mel Wild says:

          Louis finishes by talking about the non-random variations with natural selection

          Apparently, that’s commonly understood. Sean B. Carroll (who is an evolutionary developmental biologist) said in the first video, “What’s not random is the process of natural selection.” He gave general examples in the video. Rick Potts, Director, Smithsonian Human Origins Program, said this about it:

          “There’s a lot of information out there that tries to redefine science and redefine evolution in ways that are simply untenable. For example, the idea that evolution is only a random process doesn’t make any sense to scientists.”

          These aren’t technical scientific papers so they’re not going to show the data itself. They’re just giving a laymen’s level explanation.

        • john zande says:

          Fair enough, but you do understand that this is talking about probability matrixes, such as it’s more likely a protein that synthesises oxygen better will be selected and passed on up an evolutionary branch than a protein that cannot bond with a sugar. We live in an oxygen-rich atmosphere where complex, muscular organisms the dominant life forms. It’s not rocket science to see where probabilities are fatter.

          I believe, though, that you (following Louis) are looking at these matrixes in reverse, which is the way creationists look at the universe. “Isn’t it remarkable that things appear tuned just right for life on earth!” No, it’s not remarkable. The chance of that happening is exactly 1:1. We are that chance. You don’t get to retroactively grade life for being fitted for the conditions at the moment. Evolution never ends, it never ceases, never rests. The transfer and rearrangement of material is incessant. Concepts, therefore, such as end design, optimal design, stasis, and even destiny are only fleetingly meaningful notions, and only ever so in a local context. Evolution is not working towards something, rather best fitting organisms to contemporary conditions. For example, the entire evolutionary matrix (with all its statistical data points pointing loosely in one direction) changes the very moment a dirty great knob of space debris crashes into the Pacific Ocean tomorrow.

          Please tell me you understand that.

        • Mel Wild says:

          I believe, though, that you (following Louis) are looking at these matrixes in reverse, which is the way creationists look at the universe.

          Why is creationist view in reverse? Who decided that? Of course, EVERYONE looks at the data from their worldview. There’s not such thing as totally disinterested observation.

          Evolution is not working towards something, rather best fitting organisms to contemporary conditions.

          How does this prove that it’s not ultimately working toward something?

          For example, the entire evolutionary matrix (with all its statistical data points pointing loosely in one direction) changes the very moment a dirty great knob of space debris crashes into the Pacific Ocean tomorrow.

          I’m not a biologist so I wouldn’t know. I do wonder how one chunk of space debris would change the entire evolutionary matrix tomorrow.

        • john zande says:

          How does this prove that it’s not ultimately working toward something?

          Are you suggesting Yhwh will stop evolution when his goal is achieved?

          I do wonder how one chunk of space debris would change the entire evolutionary matrix tomorrow.

          Do you seriously know that little about earth’s history?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Are you suggesting Yhwh will stop evolution when his goal is achieved?

          No, my point is that we cannot prove it either way. But my faith would believe it has a purpose (including the randomness).

          Do you seriously know that little about earth’s history?

          My question is how it would change everything? Wouldn’t it depend on how big the chunk is? An asteroid, of course, but space debris is falling to the earth all the time without upsetting the ecosystem.

        • john zande says:

          But my faith would believe it has a purpose (including the randomness).

          If that purpose is to cause harm, then great, job well done.

          From the Genetic Literacy Project: “Most mutations in the human genome are recent and probably harmful”

          Joshua Akey of the University of Washington … estimated that more than 80 percent are probably harmful to us.

          So, you’re saying Yhwh’s intent is to cause harm?

        • John Branyan says:

          Ooo! Ooo! I can answer that!
          But first, are we agreed that Yhwh caused evolution?

  2. Arkenaten says:

    Is Ard Louis a Christian?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Then he can be summarily dismissed.
        Why can’t you find a secularist to make your case for your god?

        • Mel Wild says:

          And, using your logic, we can dismiss every single scientist who is anti-theist. Not too prejudice are you.

          First, I’ve quoted several atheist and secular scientists on this blog, including on the first video in this post So, Ark, how many Christian sources do you quote in your echo chamber?

        • Arkenaten says:

          Let’s sort out the very basics shall we?
          Please tell us what is the primary reason for one to become a Christian? And what is the primary requirement when swearing belief?
          These two point are crucial.

        • Mel Wild says:

          What does that have to do with this post, Ark? And if you were the least bit interested, I would actually answer you, but since you clearly aren’t, I won’t.

          And back to the point, why should I believe anything an anti-theist like Dawkins says when they constantly smuggle in their worldview in their “science” since that worldview is a completely irrational one? So, on that basis, I should dismiss them, right?

        • Arkenaten says:

          I just KNEW you were going to open your comment with this line!
          And OF COURSE I am interested to see you write it out because it is crucial to thw formation of every other idea that follows.
          So ….
          …..what is the primary reason for one to become a Christian? And what is the primary requirement when swearing belief?

        • Mel Wild says:

          And what is the requirement to become a combative anti-theist who practices scientism?

        • Arkenaten says:

          Come on , Mel.
          No more evasion.
          You are punting your Christian scientists or rather, scientists who are Christian, so let’s see a bit of down to earth, honest to goodness integrity.
          They are no doubt brilliant scientists.
          I listened to Louis and he sounds like a man with his head screwed on …. most of the way, although he doesn’t seem to have much of a soft spot for Crick.
          Nevertheless, there’s no doubt he’s extremely clever.
          Now, tell me the primary reason for one such as Louis (and you) to become a Christian? And, also, what is the primary requirement when swearing belief?

          Let’s see that integrity shine in defense of your faith in Jesus the Nazarene, Mel.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, Ark. I told you I’m not playing your stupid game. So, since I’m “punting” Christian scientists (even though they’re not all Christian) then you should not punt any of your scientist who are anti-theist or promote any kind of scientism, like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Carrier, and their ilk, right? I’m just using YOUR logic.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I acknowledge .the non-Christians you occasionally quote.
          However this is secondary to what I am asking; What are the fundamental reasons for an individual accepting the faith of Christianity and what does the individual normally have to do before they become born again?

          It is a straightforward request. ~

          If you are comfortable with using these scientists to help make your case then you should have absolutely no qualms laying out the foundation of their faith as well.

          Surely you are not ashamed of your god and his followers?
          So tell us the reasons they, like you, became Christian and what they felt obliged to acknowledge before taking on this responsibility.

        • Mel Wild says:

          You can ask them since they are the scientists, Ark. I already posted a few testimonies on this blog, like Francis Collins. He described his conversion.

          Otherwise, your question is totally irrelevant here. And you never ask these questions without some ulterior motive, so that’s all you’re going to get from me.

        • Arkenaten says:

          No, the question is absolutely crucial and it seems , as always, you are afraid, or embarrassed to acknowledge why these people became Christians and equally if not more important what they were required to acknowledge before they were considered born again.
          if you aren’t prepared to discuss the terms and conditions of your faith then you have no integrity and you come across as underhand and disingenuous.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Then ask THEM, Ark. They are the scientists. Or read their testimonies. And should we be just as scrupulous about anti-theists, judging their motives instead of their science? And should we accept or reject them as scientists based on their personal beliefs? Otherwise, you’re not just being disingenuous, you’re being hypocritical.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I have read Collins testimony.
          I want to see you write out the primary reason for why these people accept Christianity and what they are required to do before being considered Born Again.

          Let’s see you write it out if you are not ashamed of it. If you think it is immaterial to your view.
          Let me see some integrity just for once.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No. Totally irrelevant. And your childish shaming won’t work on me. To quote Nero Wolfe, I can dodge folly without backing into fear.

        • Arkenaten says:

          It is not a sham. Their religious beliefs are the foundation on which their scientific beliefs ultimately rest.
          But it is why they become Christian and not an adherent of another religion or simply deists that is crucial .

          That you will not confront this is, if you will excuse the intended pun, evidence enough of the reason why every argument you present fails.
          It is not about a potential creator, or even that the narrative construct, the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene is that creator, as ludicrous as this in itself is, but rather the reasons for believing in him and what that requires which is the real issue, isn’t is Mel?
          Not to mention the believed consequences of not believing.
          And this is why your arguments … and theirs for that matter, are ultimately as substantial as a puff of smoke.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Thanks for your opinion, Ark. It’s a fallacious argument, as usual, but thanks anyway.

        • Arkenaten says:

          If you consider it fallacious and my observations are incorrect then explain the primary reason why you and every scientist became Christian in the first instance.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, Ark. You have not given any coherent reason why an anti-theist scientist’s worldview would be any better than a scientist with a Christian worldview. It’s a totally bogus argument which I don’t wish to continue. And anti-theists (like Crick and Dawkins) have smuggled their worldview into their science all the time and we allow it. Why should it be any different for a Christian?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Here, I’ll let Francis Collins talk to you about the issue.

        • Arkenaten says:

          You see, you are a coward and I suspect a bit of a fraud.
          You trot out these scientists who are Christian yet refuse point blank to admit the two primary reasons for their faith.
          How could anyone who was completely unaware of the Christian religion be expected to trust you as far as they could spit if you are just too damn scared to stand up and ”own” your own faith and offer the truth behind conversion?

          Why should any non-Christian or non- believer of any sort give you the farking time of day when you haven’t got the balls, let alone an ounce of integrity to state categorically why you and these particular scientists chose Christianity and their primary reasons for doing so?

        • Mel Wild says:

          You see, you are a coward and I suspect a bit of a fraud.

          I was wondering how long it would take before you got to the dismissive name calling. Sorry, Ark, your shaming and goading has no credibility here. Of course, you still never answered my questions. Not too hypocritical, are you.

        • Arkenaten says:

          What is highly amusing about your entire persona is that it is exactly what you dismiss in those Christians that you consider wrong in their theology.
          You display a worrying absolutism that borders on the fanatical, and dismiss other faiths even within your own religion.
          You trot out the ”close-minded” trope every other post, and here you are refusing to own your version of your faith!

          It isn’t as if I don’t know the reason now is it, Mel?
          But you seem to consider that the desperate need for an after-life and acknowledging one is a vile sinner before one even gets a shot at this eternity is ”off the table”, has no relevance and is completely ”off topic”.

          If admission of sin is of no relevance why do you all have to admit it?

          Why is Louis, for example, a Christian and not a Muslim or a Jew or Hindu or even one of the other recognised brands of Christianity other the one he currently is ( whichever one it is).
          It sure as hell isn’t evidence, for god’s sake, now is it!

          And why isn’t he a member of your particular brand of salvation, Mel?

          And why are you so afraid to reveal to me the evidence that convinced you that not only were you a lousy sinner, but that Christianity was the way to go and the Foursquare church was THE ticket to ensure your smooth passage to the Afterlife?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Ark, there is nothing you’ve said here that has any truth at all. Not to mention, it’s totally irrelevant to whether we should accept a scientist based on his or her worldview. Obviously, you don’t care about being relevant or having a coherent thought. You only demonstrate your hypocrisy in these matters. The only close-minded trope here is the dogmatic scientism that I’m hearing from you. Again, quite ironic. Let me know when you have a relevant question.

        • Arkenaten says:

          A relevant question?

          How does Ard Louis arrive at the conclusion that:
          a) he is a sinner
          b) he needs salvation
          c) that a human blood sacrifice is the key to his salvation and eternal life in heaven.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Again, totally irrelevant to his science. Try again.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Is it?
          Does he not consider Yahweh/>Jesus the Nazarene the uncaused cause who is responsible for the universe?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Science only deals with the natural world, Ark. Again, your question is irrelevant.

        • Arkenaten says:

          But the supernatural world ultimately guides his science.
          I mean, this is why you are presenting a scientist who is a Christian, is it not?
          Otherwise you would have presented Sean Carroll or de Grasse Tyson.
          I am still waiting for the evidence that convinced you, Mel. I presume it would be similar to what conviunce Louis, yes?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Ark, can an auto mechanic be a Catholic? That’s about as relevant. The only reason you think your question is relevant is because you treat science like a religion (scientism). But science does not, nor can it, address anything outside of the natural world, so your metaphysical beliefs are irrelevant.

  3. Arkenaten says:

    Crick was especially critical of Christianity:
    “I do not respect Christian beliefs. I think they are ridiculous. If we could get rid of them we could more easily get down to the serious problem of trying to find out what the world is all about.”:[91]

    • Mel Wild says:

      Then we should dismiss anything Crick said as a scientist, right?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Why? No supernatural beliefs govern his worldview.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, just a totally irrational one.

        • Arkenaten says:

          What is irrational about not believing in the supernatural?

        • Mel Wild says:

          It’s irrational to think that the universe has no cause.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Is it?
          Well then, show evidence of that supposed cause, please.

        • Mel Wild says:

          What kind of evidence, Ark? Tell me what evidence Hamlet would use for the existence of Shakespeare.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Show me the evidence that convinced you, Mel. That will do for a start.

        • John Branyan says:

          Hey Mel,

          It would seem to me that Harry Potter is evidence that J.K. Rowling exists.
          What do you think?

        • Mel Wild says:

          That would normally be a rational explanation but I’m sure Harry’s anti-Rowling friends would mock him and goad him to provide evidence anyway.

        • John Branyan says:

          That’s a great idea!
          I suggest you tell Ark that you no longer believe in J.K. Rowling.
          Then we can mock him when he offers the ‘fictional character ‘ of Harry Potter as evidence for his faith in his author.
          He won’t understand what’s happening but it’ll be much more fun that conversing with him.

        • Nan says:

          Why is it irrational (Not consistent with or using reason) to think the universe has no cause? As I’ve questioned before, must there always be a cause? Yes, we live in a cause and effect world so it seems “natural” to us, but must it be the determining factor related to something so vast as the genesis of the Universe?

        • Mel Wild says:

          What rationale are we using to say the universe is the only thing that exists that has no cause?

        • Nan says:

          Technically, there is no rationale. It’s just a concept that has always intrigued me. There’s so much “discussion” over the genesis of the universe when in actuality no one can offer irrefutable evidence. We each have our theories (laypeople and scientists alike), but since none of us was there … well … it’s all conjecture.

        • Mel Wild says:

          True, no one can prove it one way or the other with science. Yet, here we are.

        • john zande says:

          What rationale are we using to say the universe is the only thing that exists that has no cause?

          When thorium-234 naturally decays into protactinium-234, the nucleus emits an electron. The electron wasn’t in the nucleus before, and it had no cause.

          The quantum realm can be very, very strange.

        • Nan says:

          The quantum realm can be very, very strange. Boy howdy! Ain’t that the truth?

        • Mel Wild says:

          John, the quantum realm is still something. You haven’t addressed the question at all. Why is there a quantum field in the first place. What is the cause? You are still only describing a process once there is “something.”

        • john zande says:

          Are you saying everything has a cause?

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, I’m saying that everything in the universe has a cause.

        • john zande says:

          So, not everything has a cause.

          Great.

          So there is no problem.

        • Mel Wild says:

          No, you still have no answer. Everything in the natural world does have a cause. The universe is part of the natural world, therefore it must also have a cause.

        • Nan says:

          Makes sense … except when it doesn’t. 🙂

        • john zande says:

          Are you sure you’re even asking the right question?

          Your question, after all, is drawn from (flawed) Newtonian physics, and that models the baryonic world, which comprises a grand total of just 4.6% of this particular universe, interacting with just 3 of anywhere from 11 to 26 dimensions. Do you know how super high energy strings (vibrating faster than light) behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold?

          So, you are making a statement based on a faulty model trying (but failing) to explain just 4.6% of possible information which is only partially relevant in only a fraction of dimensions, in this particular universe only… A universe, mind you, far, far better ‘designed’ for the production of black holes, not life capable planets.

          As Hawking wrote, philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly in physics.

          Perhaps you should put a check on your hubris.

        • Mel Wild says:

          When I simplistically said “universe,” I meant all things in the universe(s), including all dimensions. If it’s a string it still has a cause. It’s still “something.”

          And speaking of hubris, I’m afraid Hawking should stay out of philosophy and any form of metaphysics. He’s a brilliant physicist and cosmologist but he doesn’t know what he’s talking about in this regard. He still doesn’t seem to understand what is meant by absolutely nothing. He should stick to natural science.

        • john zande says:

          And you are making a statement based on a faulty model trying (but failing) to explain just 4.6% of possible information… in this particular universe.

          Do you know how super high energy strings (vibrating faster than light) behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold?

          Yes, or No?

        • Mel Wild says:

          And you’re totally still missing the point. That and the other 96% are still part of the “something” that has a cause.

        • john zande says:

          Do you know how super high energy strings (vibrating faster than light) behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold?

          Yes, or No?

          Can you please answer the question…

        • Mel Wild says:

          Why? Do you know why they exist?

        • john zande says:

          Please, Mel

          Do you know how super high energy strings (vibrating faster than light) behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold?

          Yes, or No?

          Please, can you answer the question…

        • Mel Wild says:

          John, do you know how super high energy strings (vibrating faster than light) behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold?
          Yes, or No?
          Can you please answer the question…

        • john zande says:

          Mel, please…

          Do you know how super high energy strings (vibrating faster than light) behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold?

          Yes, or No?

          Can you please, please, please answer the question…

        • Mel Wild says:

          You tell me. So what? What does that have to do with anything we’ve been talking about? It doesn’t matter how fast something vibrates or how many dimensions it exists in, it still needs a cause.

        • john zande says:

          Does it?

          So even though you don’t have the faintest idea about how reality works, you’re somehow confident that you can make a definitive statement about the nature of reality based on demonstrably erroneous, childlike maxims drawn from a faulty model that fails to explain even the 4.6% of this world available to it to explain… but doesn’t.

          And what was that you were saying about hubris, Mel?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Hubris? Haha…how ironic, Mr. Pseudo-intellectual.

          So what, John? How does knowing this address the question at all? Are you saying that something that vibrates faster than the speed of light and exists in six dimensions is not still “something?” How does knowing the other 96% of “something” change the question? You are making a category mistake (again). Or are you just making a faith statement here and arguing for a “science of the gaps”?

        • john zande says:

          Do you know how super high energy strings (vibrating faster than light) behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold?

          Yes, or No?

        • Mel Wild says:

          I’ll take your word for it. Do you know where I left my sunglasses?

        • john zande says:

          So, that’s a No.

          You do not know how super high energy strings behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold. You do not, therefore, have the faintest idea about how reality works.

          Not. A. Clue.

          And neither do I.

          And that’s fair enough. These things are (presently) beyond our classical concepts. When compared to the diameter of a proton, the size of a string, for example, is thought to be about the same proportion as the size of a man to the distance of Andromeda galaxy. The tension in a string is like imagining suspending the mass of two Andromeda galaxies from the Earth. Classical concepts (like open and closed, length, location, vibration) simply don’t work. Place these fundamental parts of reality in multi-dimensional manifolds (that care not for our baryonic concepts of time and space) and the human brain (with its primitive symbolic capacity designed only to understand 3+1-dimensions) simply arrives at near-perfect senselessness.

          So yes, it shows a staggering amount of hubris to even suggest that you can make a comment on the nature of reality when the Newtonian model you’re using can’t even explain the available 4.6% of a 3-dimensional world wrapped in, and stitched through, with anywhere from 11 to 26 other dimensions.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Of course, I don’t know, John. It’s a ridiculous question.

          And it’s not hubris on my part. It’s just being consistent to my point. I don’t have to know everything there is to know about quantum mechanics to say that it’s still “something.” No matter how far down you drill into the natural world, or how many dimensions there are, the point doesn’t change. It still needs a cause.

        • john zande says:

          Of course, I don’t know, John …. It still needs a cause.

          Hubris, meet feebleminded self-contradiction.

          Congratulations.

        • Mel Wild says:

          You mean like, “I don’t know…but you’re wrong!” Okay, I see what you mean.

        • john zande says:

          Have I claimed to “know”?

          You “don’t know,” and yet in the same breath you simultaneously “do know.”

          Astonishing, really… especially considering in this 4.6% baryonic world (the 4.6% you’re drawing your total knowledge of this world from) one thing cannot be two things, in two places, at once. It can, however, in the quantum realm… Which you obviously understand completely, and with perfect clarity.

          Publish a paper and collect your Nobel.

        • Mel Wild says:

          What does any of this have to do with my point?

        • john zande says:

          You. Don’t. Know. How. Reality. Works.

        • Mel Wild says:

          What.reality?
          Talk about hubris!

        • john zande says:

          You’re basing your entire statement on a failed model that can’t even explain 4.6% of this particular universe.

          Read that sentence as many times as needed before it sinks in, OK… then you should look for the definition of hubris.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Or I could just ignore it as many times because it still misses the whole point. Thanks for wasting my time. Got to go…

        • john zande says:

          So you actually think you can make an informed statement on the behaviour and scope of the universe based on a faulty model of just 4.6% of that universe?

          Interesting.

          Here’s hoping you don’t write strategy for anyone, or anything.

        • Mel Wild says:

          John, please just let this go. You obviously don’t understand my point. You are trying to analyze the proverbial “trees” while I am talking about the “forest.” The big picture, if you will. Whether it’s 4.6% of something, or .0046% or something, or 95.4% of something, it’s still something. For instance, I don’t have to know how many objects are in a container, or understand all the details about the objects, to see that they are all still inside the container. If it’s a natural phenomenon it has a cause, whether it be quantum or macro, three-dimensional or 100-dimensional, they ALL still belong to the same interconnected “world(s).” Your question does not address this point.

        • john zande says:

          Your question does not address this point.

          Oh, yes it does, and that’s why it’s so awkward for you.

          But seriously, if you think you can make an informed statement on the behaviour and scope of this particular universe based entirely on a faulty model that cannot even explain 4.6% of this particular universe, then no amount of reason is going to penetrate your smug conceitedness.

          But thanks for providing a superb working example of why religion and science are thoroughly and hopelessly and eternally incompatible.

          But do tell me this: Do you believe there was once nothing?

        • Mel Wild says:

          You tell me exactly how it addresses the point?

        • john zande says:

          Because you are trying to make a statement on the behaviour and scope of this particular universe without knowing squat about the behaviour and scope of this particular universe.

          But as I said, your stunning hubris here is a superb working example of why religion and science are thoroughly incompatible.

          Thanks, at least, for that.

          But do tell me this: Do you believe there was once nothing?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Because you are trying to make a statement on the behaviour and scope of this particular universe without knowing squat about the behaviour and scope of this particular universe.

          All I have to know is that there is a universe to make my point.
          So, are you saying that some things don’t have a cause in the universe? And if they don’t have a cause, why do they exist? In order to have strings, matter, etc., it must first exist. Where did it come from?

          But as I said, your stunning hubris here is a superb working example of why religion and science are thoroughly incompatible.

          Again, irrelevant to my point, and it’s your opinion that science and faith are incompatible. As I pointed out to Ark, Francis Collins said that the staunch anti-theists in the scientific community are a minority. Theist and secular scientists work together all the time. It’s your extreme anti-theistic intolerance and scientism that’s the problem, not actual science or faith.

          And what’s the ultimate hubris is saying that something just created itself from absolutely nothing.

          But do tell me this: Do you believe there was once nothing?

          We theists believe God created the universe ex nillo (from nothing), including time itself. It’s not about how the universe got started but why it exists.

        • john zande says:

          All I have to know is that there is a universe to make my point.

          No, your point is being drawn from a faulty model that cannot even explain 4.6% of this particular universe.

          So, are you saying that some things don’t have a cause in the universe?

          You’ve already said not everything requires a cause.

          Me, I don’t know. Presently, I have no idea how 96.4% of this particular universe behaves, so to make a comment based on that little information would not only be absurd, but the height of arrogance.

          What I do know is that modern physics does not even talk in terms of cause and effect. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics (there are other interpretations, but this one may be the most popular among physicists) says that many events at the quantum level have no cause.

          We theists believe God created the universe ex nillo (from nothing), including time itself.

          That doesn’t answer my question.

          Do you believe there was once nothing?

        • john zande says:

          Mel, Do you believe there was once nothing?

        • john zande says:

          Mel,

          Do you believe there was once nothing?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Do you actually listen to anything I say, John? Theologically speaking, there was always God. He exists outside of the universe brought forth “something” from nothing (apart from His self-existence).

        • john zande says:

          Oh, so there can’t be nothing?

          Interesting.

          So, in this thread alone you have admitted 1) not everything requires a cause, and 2) there was never nothing.

          Just to remind you, your entire argument hinges on two apparently immutable things: 1) everything requires a cause, and 2) there was once nothing.

          Well done, Mel… You’ve annihilated your own argument.

          And just another reminder, You believe this world is artificial.

          Sorry, but without any supporting evidence, there’s absolute no rational reason, whatsoever, for me, or anyone else, to think that.

        • Mel Wild says:

          First, I can’t help it if you don’t understand the argument, John. Second, I said everything in the universe (natural world) requires a cause. God is NOT the universe! That is a pagan notion of God. God is not a contingent being and does not exist in the universe. He both exists outside of it and sustains it. The two are not inconsistent. They only are inconsistent to you because, again, you make a category mistake, which is why you didn’t understand the question in the first place.

        • john zande says:

          First, I can’t help it if you don’t understand the argument

          I understand the argument perfectly well… It’s chock-full of self-negating contradictions, special pleading, and the mother of all God-of-the-Gaps.

          Second, I said everything in the universe (natural world) requires a cause.

          Does it? So you know how super high energy strings behave in a 6-dimensional Calabi–Yau manifold, do you?

          I thought you said you didn’t?

          So, which is it… Do you know, or don’t you know how 96.4% of this universe works?

          God is NOT the universe!

          You believe this world—the universe—is artificial.

          I don’t.

          I don’t have any reason at all to think that.

          None.

          So, prove to me that this world—the universe—is artificial.

        • john zande says:

          Mel, hate to break this to you, but unless you can prove to me, and to yourself, that this universe is artificial, you have nothing.

          Well, you do have an adult fantasy, a cartoon, but that’s about it.

          So, can you prove to me, and to yourself, that this universe is artificial?

        • Mel Wild says:

          John, you cannot prove why the universe exists, so stop with your fallacious reasoning. I’m not trying to prove anything. I’m making an argument.

          A worldview is not a proof, it’s an argument for a worldview. And to say that the universe “poofed” from nothing, or “X” is the cause of “X” is not only circular, but irrational.

          So, prove to me, logically or scientifically, that “X” is the cause of “X.”

        • john zande says:

          I’m making an argument.

          No, you’re not. You’re presenting a fantasy dressed in an ocean of 2,500 year old self-contradicting fallacies.

          Like I said earlier, to even think I could make an informed statement on the behaviour and scope of the universe when the total amount of information I have on the behaviour and scope of this universe comes from a faulty model that cannot even completely explain 4.6% of the behaviour and scope of this universe would be the absolute height of conceited arrogance.

          Based on the information I do have, the only statement I can honestly make is that the 4.6% of this universe that I’m familiar with and can comment on, the baryonic world, does not behave like all the stuff I’m not familiar with. That leaves an awful big space for stuff to happen that we might rightly (albeit ignorantly) call “magic.”

          But again, thanks for demonstrating precisely why religion and science are, and will always be, incompatible.

  4. Arkenaten says:

    @ JB

    Ah, Bless you, Branyan, you read my post. How sweet! .

    I give you full permission to use any of my material. After all, you need all the comedic help you can get.
    Happy trails.

  5. John Branyan says:

    Hey Mel,

    Another good post! So much for “random” and “unguided” evolution.
    The term “natural selection” should have been enough to make atheists suspicious but they are pretty dense.

    Wanted to update you that we’re still waiting for Dig-Dug Pearce to admit that his comments have order and meaning. He’s still pretending that we bear the burden of proof when it comes to ‘purpose’ in the universe. What’s the point in responding to comments that the author himself doesn’t think have any substance?

  6. Arkenaten says:

    Religion needs to talk to science, but science does not need to talk to religion. And the reason why is because science is right and religion is not right.

    Sean Caroll

    • Mel Wild says:

      Again, so what? That’s like saying auto mechanics can’t address psychology. They answer two very different questions.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Ark, can an auto mechanic be a Catholic? That’s about as relevant. The only reason you think your question is relevant is because you treat science like a religion (scientism). But science does not, nor can it, address anything outside of the natural world, so your metaphysical beliefs are irrelevant.

        Except for the silly ”scientism” quip I agree wholeheartedly with this comment.
        And as an auto mechanic can be a Catholic so too can a scientist be a Catholic, or hold any sort of religious belief.

        But fixing cars and Catholicism have absolutely nothing in common.
        The is no overlapping of magisteria, no middle ground, and no area where his Catholicism will ever solve the problem of his fuel economy or why there there is piston slap, or tell him about the pressure on the tires of the car.

        So too with a scientist such as Ard Louis.
        He is no doubt brilliant at what he does, but there is no part of that work where his religion has any say whatsoever.

        Hence, while they can exist side by side in his mind and not interfere with his work at all thanks to the human ability to compartmentalize, they are not and never will be compatible.

        Science is science and religion is not.
        As there is no place for science in religion, just as there is no place for religion in science.

        I am almost afraid to ask, but have we finally reached some sort of agreement?

        Ark.

        • Mel Wild says:

          I am almost afraid to ask, but have we finally reached some sort of agreement?

          Yes, I would agree with what you said about science and religion being different things. This is what I’ve been trying to say all along. Alister McGrath said it this way:

          “Science seeks to clarify mechanisms; religions offer meaning. These approaches do not need to be seen as being in competition, or as being mutually incompatible. They operate at different levels.”

          The problem comes in when science tries to answer metaphysical or existential questions or when religion tries to answer scientific questions. People like Dawkins are trying to replace philosophy and religion with science, which is scientism, by smuggling in their worldview. That’s why I call scientism the religion of anti-theists. Theists run into the same problem when they try to turn their scripture into a science textbook.

          So, as long as scientists stay out of psychology, sociology, philosophy, religion, or anything metaphysical, they are properly doing their job (scientific method can be used to help but not replace). As long as religious people aren’t using their religion for a scientific method, they are doing their job. Science can help theists understand the natural world we live in (cosmology, biology) and theists and philosophers can help scientists with the existential questions that science cannot answer.

        • Arkenaten says:

          And do I understand by this that you and people like Ard Louis will finally stop inserting your god and his scripture into science?

          Science can help theists understand the natural world we live in (cosmology, biology) and theists and philosophers can help scientists with the existential questions that science cannot answer

          I’ll add physics here as well.

          Please give me an example of an existential question that you, as a theist, can answer?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Religion and philosophy can answer the “why we’re here” questions, purpose, identity, etc. They can help us make sense of our existence, that we’re not just what you can put under a microscope. We are much more than our chemical composition.

        • Arkenaten says:

          You didn’t answer the first part of the comment:
          And do I understand by this that you and people like Ard Louis will finally stop inserting your god and his scripture into science?

          Religion and philosophy can answer the “why we’re here” questions,

          Fine… then tell me why we are here, please.
          And tell me what our purpose is.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Fine… then tell me why we are here, please.
          And tell me what our purpose is.

          The fact that you keep asking a question we’ve already talked about at length is a bit annoying. One can only say why we believe we have purpose. But to exist and not have purpose makes life meaningless and futile. It’s not a satisfactory answer at all and science will never answer it. We talked about this recently in “Why Do We Search For Meaning to life?”

        • Arkenaten says:

          You said that you were able to provide answers to the existential questions.
          However, contrary to what you might believe, your link does not in fact answer the questions I asked, although the first three of Zacharias’s responses are pretty good. The fourth of course is simply wishful thinking.
          So please, in your own words tell me what is our purpose as humans and why are we here.

          And you still have not responded to the first part …
          And do I understand by this that you and people like Ard Louis will finally stop inserting your god and his scripture into science?

          Can you at least answer this time? Thanks.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Okay, I will give you my answer one more time so you won’t keep asking this.

          From our human perspective, we were primarily created for relationship: to find love and to love (other-centered, self-giving love). This includes finding enjoyment, meaning, and fulfillment for our lives…to contribute, work, create, explore, improve, restore, and enjoy the beauty of nature and be good stewards of what we’ve been given. All of this is subsumed within the joy of other-centered, self-giving love. It’s why we get up in the morning and what provides meaning to our lives.

          From the Christian worldview, God’s perspective is as Dr. Baxter Kruger put it…

          “The stunning truth is that this Triune God, in amazing and lavish love, determined to open the circle and share the Trinitarian life with others. This is the one, eternal and abiding reason for the creation of the world and of human life.”

          So, ultimately we were meant to seek and find this God, not just to exist but to enjoy life as He has always enjoyed life. This is where we find ultimate value and identity and fulfillment. And none of these things can be answered by reductionism and science. They are metaphysical and existential values.

        • Nan says:

          I can more or less agree with the first part of your response (I don’t agree with the “created” part). But the second part? Not so much … So, ultimately we were meant to seek and find this God … where we find ultimate value and identity and fulfillment.

          This is a very prejudiced statement. Far better if you had prefaced it with “I believe” or even “Many believe” because there are several million people who find “ultimate value and identity and fulfillment” without this “god” you speak of.

        • Mel Wild says:

          This is a very prejudiced statement. Far better if you had prefaced it with “I believe”…

          Hi Nan. Sorry, I thought that was a given. As I said, “I will give you my answer…” But, yes, it is what I personally believe, based on my worldview and theology. This is NOT saying that it proves anything. It’s what makes the most sense to me.

        • Arkenaten says:

          The problem with this answer is it is an wholly unsubstantiatedopinion based on an a priori theological belief and has absolutely no merit outside of this realm.
          It is, in fact, entirely meaningless as you have no way of demonstrating any god let alone the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene.

          So you haven’t answered anything at all.

        • Mel Wild says:

          “Demonstrating” how, Ark. With a science experiment? That’s not the point. Of course, it’s a worldview. That’s the whole point. It’s not something science can address.
          My explanation is how I make sense of life. I’ve only not answered anything for you.

        • Mel Wild says:

          And do I understand by this that you and people like Ard Louis will finally stop inserting your god and his scripture into science?

          Yes, of course. And people like Dawkins, Harris, and their ilk, should stop smuggling their scientistic worldview into their science.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Harris for one is a neuroscientist. Where on earth does he ”smuggle” his worldview into science?
          Please give an example.

          And I will hold you to your statement not to insert your god into anything that resembles science.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Harris for one is a neuroscientist. Where on earth does he ”smuggle” his worldview into science?

          Because he believes that neuroscience will make religion obsolete. For an example of smuggling a worldview, I will use an example that Louis used. It comes from Dawkins’s quote from the “Selfish Gene.” The way Dawkins words it is based on a worldview not scienec. Denis Noble proves this by standing Dawkins’s statement on its head, showing that you cannot prove either one is true. Here’s a screenshot.

        • Arkenaten says:

          There doesn’t seem to be anything particularly wrong with Dawkins’ statement, so I can’t see what Noble was trying to demonstrate.

          As far as Harris is concerned:
          As we know that all religion is simply man-made doctrine that is inculcated into successive generations then I would concur with Harris. And I am going to presume Harris bases his view on evidence and then he simply extrapolates to arrive at his answer.
          Nothing I have ever listened to of him suggests he promotes anything but the truth, and in my experience he always backs his stuff with evidence.
          So how is this smuggling a worldview into science? It IS science!
          And why do you believe that neuroscience will not eventually make religion obsolete?

        • Mel Wild says:

          There doesn’t seem to be anything particularly wrong with Dawkins’ statement, so I can’t see what Noble was trying to demonstrate.

          You can’t see this? Wow. It’s pretty obvious. Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with Dawkins’s statement. He just can’t prove it with science. He can no more prove that gene preservation is the ultimate rationale for our existence than Noble can prove that we are the ultimate rationale for our existence. They are both worldview statements, not scientific ones. That’s the point Noble is making. These scientists do this all the time, mixing science with their worldview, making it sound like science. That is NOT science! It’s scientism.

          On Harris, I don’t have a quote for you right now. But he is a militant anti-theist.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I know he is a militant anti-theist.
          Bearing in mind the horrors religion is responsible for is it any wonder?
          And considering that all religion is man- made why do you not believe neuroscience will make religion obsolete?

        • Mel Wild says:

          And considering that all religion is man- made why do you not believe neuroscience will make religion obsolete?

          And you can prove there is no God and all religion is man-made how?

          I have to go. And since you can’t answer that question (honestly, I won’t need to wait for an answer. Talk to you later.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I did not say anything about proving gods and never have, and likely never will.
          But all religion is man-made. This is a simply fact of life.
          And because all religion is man-made
          there is every likelihood it will eventually disappear.

        • Mel Wild says:

          And because all religion is man-made
          there is every likelihood it will eventually disappear.

          And you have absolutely no evidence to prove your claim. It’s your hope, probably, a speculation at best.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Actually, evidence suggests it is already happening.
          In small doses yes, but we can look at Europe as a guideline. I am sure you probably know that England for example is no longer considered a Christian nation. Amazing isn’t it? Who would have thought?
          All the Scandinavian countries are moving relatively quickly toward wholly secular humanism. Iceland will likely be completely non-religious in a generation or two. And there are a number of Westernized countries around the globe where similar trends can be observed.
          Christianity has held sway for over 2000 years so it is not going to suddenly drop off the radar. But its power base is shrinking as the more socially advanced nations are realising that it simply has little if any serious meaning anymore.

          So, yes, I would say it will eventually be considered little more than a quirky oddity much like worship of the Greek gods would be today.
          And of course the Internet is a major catalyst in this regard.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Traditional religion, probably yes. Spirituality or belief in God, no. Things are changing, which theism makes major shifts from time to time in human history, but you think the world will become atheist, prepare for disappointment.

        • Arkenaten says:

          The world may well adopt forms of spiritualism.
          But the notion of an all-controlling personal god will be relegated to the pages of nonsense, as well it should.

          As I stated above , it is already happening.

        • Mel Wild says:

          But the notion of an all-controlling personal god will be relegated to the pages of nonsense, as well it should.
          As I stated above , it is already happening.

          I think you’ve been drinking the Kool-Aid in your “echo chambers” too long. What already happening is that faith and science are seen less at war with each other today, not more. The radical anti-theistic scientism of Dawkins and his ilk had its shot for the last 40 years, but it’s been exposed for what it is and found wanting. That, of course, doesn’t prove God but it makes scientism a less appealing alternative. It’s already happening in the scientific community, it’s just a matter of time before it happens in the mainstream.

          As Francis Collins said in the video I shared before (queued up to the quote here), most in the scientific community are either uncertain, many are believers, and the real staunch “there is no God” strong atheists are a rather small minority.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Mel, you have to look at the more socially advanced nations, not Yehaw god-botherers like the USA.
          They may be trying to push a Let’s-All- Hold-Hands agenda with the likes of the Templeton Foundation and the Faraday Institute but genuine scientists aren’t buying it, and normal people simply couldn’t give a monkey’s uncle.
          Yuy only have to lookm at that huge intercessory prayer experiment they did a while back. Complete failure and from the religious point of view an utter waste of time.
          As Carroll said religion needs science but science has no need of religion and has nothing at all to ask of it.

          Remember, the USA is not The World any more and when it comes to such issues is pretty backward.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Again, just your anti-theist propaganda, not based in reality, as I have shown from what Francis Collins said.

          And it’s funny you mention the USA when I have posted mostly non-US scientists. You are the one who’s backward, still stuck in a combative Dawkins anti-theistic worldview. You are just the flip-side of religious fundamentalism. Sorry to disappoint but it’s this extreme combative view that will more likely fade away just like extreme religious fundamentalism. But if it doesn’t, it will be seen for what it is. In the meantime, more rational and open and honest people, both secular or religious, will work together.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I don’t care what Collins said, the facts tell a different story.

          The most socially advanced nations are moving away from religion.
          It may take several hundred years.
          It may be sooner.
          But the days of religious dominance are on the wane.
          The combatitaive view is in reaction to the vile nature of your god belief.
          Consider it was Chriatianity that was responsible for probably the worst genocide in human history so if you are going to get your underwear in a know over Hitch and Dawkins then I could not give a shit.
          When the truth has been fully revealed by these so-called New Atheists and those that will follow and people sit up and take notice then the inexorable decline will become even more noticeable.

          Oh, and there is NOTHING honest about religion.
          You better get used to it.

        • Mel Wild says:

          I don’t care what Collins said, the facts tell a different story.

          Of course you don’t care, Ark. You’ve proven, over and over again, that you will dismiss anything that disagrees with your conclusions.

          Consider it was Chriatianity that was responsible for probably the worst genocide in human history so if you are going to get your underwear in a know over Hitch and Dawkins then I could not give a shit.

          Oh really? It was the atheist Stalin who slaughtered about 60 million in total, mostly his own people. For instance, he committed massive atrocities in Ukraine, killing millions, simply because they were Ukrainians. Hitler was no Christian and tried to totally exterminate a whole race of people, the Jews (and homosexuals, artists, and dissidents, etc.) It’s secularism that promotes euthanasia and infanticide (called abortion). And, using your logic, science would be to blame for weapons of mass destruction, eugenics, and all kinds of issues that poison our world.

          Sorry, Dawkins’ and Hitchens’ cherry-picking of evil human nature, pinning it all on religion, is fallacious and exposed now for what it is. A lie. The bottom line is, humans are the problem. Using religion to do evil is just one face of evil.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Oh, and there is NOTHING honest about religion.
          You better get used to it.

          And coming from you that means nothing at all. Oh, and there’s nothing honest about you asking me questions like these. Your asking questions is a ruse and totally disingenuous. You goad me into giving you my perspective but could care less about the answer. You only look for things you can attack and mock. There’s nothing whatsoever honest about you, Ark.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I did not goad you at ALL: You have been going on and on about the things that science cannot answer and all this existential evidence you have and when asked what convinced you you come back with God Made Me.
          What nonsense is that? Evidence my eye!

          You mock yourself with this nonsense, as Nan highlighted with her comment.

          Don’t then come and grizzle like a baby when you are called out.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Whatever, Ark. Believe whatever you want. This conversation has gone on long enough.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Whatever, whatever, whatever.
          For the gods’ sake! All you do is pout and whine.

        • Mel Wild says:

          From the article:

          “The secularizing West is full of white men. The general U.S. population is 46 percent male and 66 percent white, but about 68 percent of atheists are men, and 78 percent are white.”

        • Arkenaten says:

          You have a point, Mel?

        • Mel Wild says:

          That this was also part of your article. You use articles like these to make sweeping generalities, when there are cultural factors, gender, affluence, education, and other issues that influence what people currently believe about the world around them. It doesn’t empirically prove that world will one day become atheist.

        • Arkenaten says:

          The article highlighted that the fastest growing belief is Non Belief.
          That is all I wanted to show by the article.

          If you had stats to show that the fastest growing belief was ”Following Jesus” you would have hauled them out by now.
          But you haven’t, and this is simply because you can’t. And yo.u know perfectly well why not

          Out of curiosity, since you became a pastor how much has your own congregation ( not Foursquare as a denomination) increased, and is it still increasing?

  7. Arkenaten says:

    “Demonstrating” how, Ark. With a science experiment? That’s not the point. Of course, it’s a worldview. That’s the whole point. It’s not something science can address.
    My explanation is how I make sense of life. I’ve only not answered anything for you.

    YOU made the claim that religion answers questions science cannot.
    This explicitly implies evidence.
    However, you offered nothing.
    It isn’t that I mind what you believe, but you do not have the right to insist that such beliefs have merit when you have absolutely no way of demonstrating their merit.
    All you have are feelings, several thousand years of culture and the wanton dismissal of every other faith based religious view that collides with your own.

    Especially when you wish to insist these beliefs are passed on to others, some of who may be vulnerable and in particular young children who have not developed enough critical thinking skills to withstand the type of pressure exerted on them by adults to accept. This is little more than abuse.

  8. Arkenaten says:

    You still haven’t defined what you would call evidence. I cannot answer you.

    At this point I have no idea what might convince me. This is why I am interested to know what evidence convinced you.Maybe it will give me pause for thought? You never know?
    You are not an idiot and must be a reasonably intelligent man, so I am going to presume the evidence that made you become a Christian seemed credible to you and it is not something stupid like hearing voices or seeing Jesus’ face in your toast.
    So tell me what it was and we can judge its merits.
    Not difficult.

    • Mel Wild says:

      At this point I have no idea what might convince me. This is why I am interested to know what evidence convinced you.

      Okay, fair enough. One last quick comment before I go. My worldview makes the most sense of things for me.

      For instance, do you think the world be better or worse if everyone operated completely in other-centered, self-giving love? In other words, if we treated others the way we wanted to be treated, if we didn’t seek revenge and we loved our enemies? If we weren’t greedy, fearful, unforgiving, or judgmental, but always showed grace and wanted what was best for the other person. Would the world be better off or worse off?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Much better off, of course.

        Are you going to share the evidence that convinced you?

        • Mel Wild says:

          These are the teachings of Jesus. The evidence is my transformed life, and the progressive change in my character in this regard when I let them work in my life, and how God has changed millions of others in similar ways. God made me want to do them instead of have to do them because my nature is changing. And whenever we do these things that I mentioned, they work in relationships. Things get better. The problems in the world stem from not doing these things. It’s not scientific evidence, Ark. That’s my point. But it helps us make sense of things and know why we’re here.

          Why do you think you exist? What is your worldview?

        • Arkenaten says:

          Yes, but such teachings can be found in many places as John Z for one has pointed out to you on numerous occasions.
          And be honest, although they may be the teachings of the character Jesus the Nazarene they are certainly not ALL of the teachings are they Mel?

          And one doesn’t need a god to be a good person. There are plenty of non religious people who are like this and have no religion whatsoever, so this is a pretty weak argument for ”evidence”.

          Furthermore, religion has been one of the most divisive forces on the planet and still is.

          And if your god ”made” you want to change than that is a pretty poor show suggesting you would not have seen any reason to be like this if it were not for some human manifestation of a meglomanical genocidal maniac only found between the covers of a work of historical fiction.
          And the fact this is indoctrinated into small children is disgusting especially as the punishment for non compliance is eternal separation from your god and banishment to Hell in whatever form it is preached.
          I have no idea why I exist.

          You know I have no religious beliefs other than to think they are mostly quite disgusting and demeaning to people.

          What do you mean by worldview?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Ark, I’ve already answered your point about Jesus’ teachings in my comments to Nan, so I won’t repeat them here.

          I mean “worldview” as it’s normally understood. How you see the world, anything having to do with your existence. From Wikipedia: “the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing the whole of the individual’s or society’s knowledge and point of view.”

        • Arkenaten says:

          <blockquote<Ark, I’ve already answered your point about Jesus’ teachings in my comments to Nan, so I won’t repeat them here.

          Except that this is not evidence but simply feelings and wishful thinking.
          And it doesn’t answer why you were in this position to even beleive you needed your god to show you anything?
          What was the problem? Drugs, drink, sex?
          But I am pleased we have at last straightened out what you understand by evidence – which is in fact not evidence at all.

          I mean “worldview” as it’s normally understood. How you see the world, anything having to do with your existence. From Wikipedia: “the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing the whole of the individual’s or society’s knowledge and point of view.”

          In that case I don’t really have one, other than to live the best life I can, look after my family and animals, and friends, and hope to goodness that Liverpool win the premier league again before I die.

        • Mel Wild says:

          In that case I don’t really have one, other than to live the best life I can, look after my family and animals, and friends, and hope to goodness that Liverpool win the premier league again before I die.

          That’s fine. I don’t have anything against that view, Ark. I’m a Chicago Cubs fan myself and they finally won the World Series in 2016 after 108 years so I’m ready to go now. 🙂

          I guess I’m just saying that my faith enriches my life, gives it deeper meaning. I can love both science and my faith and they are not in conflict for me. You can certainly disagree but it works for me.

        • Arkenaten says:

          Well, if you feel okay worshiping a 2000 year old human blood sacrifice then that’s okay by me.
          Just keep it to yourself, keep it out of schools and the public market place that’s all and try not to corrupt the minds of kids.
          Then we are good.
          But let’s not have any more of this ”evidence” nonsense shall we?
          It is faith and that is all it is.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Well, if you feel okay worshiping a 2000 year old human blood sacrifice then that’s okay by me.

          I have no idea what worship you’re talking about. That’s not what my relationship with God is based on.

          But let’s not have any more of this ”evidence” nonsense shall we?
          It is faith and that is all it is.

          And, again, you keep talking about evidence. What kind of evidence, Ark? Otherwise, your assertion is incoherent. And you have “faith” that there is no causal agent to the universe. It just all magically “poofed” from nothing and for no reason. Sorry if I don’t find that a compelling argument.

        • Nan says:

          Sorry, but this is the song and dance of every believer. You chose to believe a god made the changes (in you and others), but people who have never entered into the “God Realm” have made major changes in their lives as well. Truly, it does not take a supernatural entity for a person’s nature to change. More accurately, it’s because of a person’s inner desire to be a better person that initiates the action.

          Let me ask you … is your nature so weak that you need to lean on some external source before you can love others … help others … treat others with respect … and/or want what is best for them?

        • Mel Wild says:

          Song and dance, Nan? This is why I hesitate to answer these kinds of questions. Ark practically goaded me into giving some “evidence” for why I believe, and when I finally do in a personal way it just gets dismissed. I hesitate because I know when people are not open to something, no answer will be good enough. Ark is just proving once again that he’s totally disingenuous when he asks these questions. He has absolutely no desire to really want to know the answer, but just find something he can mock or attack. It really gets tiring and annoying.

          First, this was only superficial evidence in my personal life. It doesn’t touch the much deeper spiritual aspect. Certainly, you don’t need a “god” to make improvements in your life but that isn’t what I mean. I’m talking about an internal transformational process that is still going on, as a matter of course, from following Jesus (“participating in the divine nature” 2 Pet.1:4). It’s the “fruit” of that ongoing process is what I mentioned.

          And it has nothing to do with whether one’s nature is weak or not. My nature was quite the opposite, so I struggled with it more than many would. I didn’t need Jesus in that way. And, yes, Jesus taught similar things that other’s taught but He meant them in a quite different way. Actually, quite the opposite in some cases.

          Just one example of many I could give. It’s not normal human nature to show grace for another person (who’s hurt us deeply). What’s typical is we want grace for ourselves and we judge other people’s weakness based on our strengths. After counseling with people (both Christian and not) for the last 25 years, I find this to be true 99% of time in relationships (maybe 100%). I also find that they either don’t see it in themselves or they say they see it but either refuse or can’t do anything about it. To “try” to be better is almost an impossibility because, in the final analysis, they really don’t see it in themselves. So, they choose anger, resentment, unforgiveness, self-pity, etc. What my relationship with Christ brings me is this other-centered view and self-awareness, self-revelation, and the empowerment to actually change. And this change is called other-centered, self-giving love. Some would call the empowerment the grace of God.

          But even this is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. I would not be able to begin to describe the inner joy and peace and affirmation I feel on an almost daily basis and regardless of circumstances. I’ve had many deep encounters with God this way, and others, that I would have difficulty adequately describing. This “grace” also helps me grow in deeper appreciation of life and of the natural world around me, which actually makes me appreciate science in a deeper way than I did before. Of course, I also “know” (by faith of course) that my life goes beyond this very brief 70-90 years of existence, that it only gets better after this short life. Of course, that’s called hope, but it’s more than just wishful thinking, and people hope for a lot of things they have no proof for so it’s not unusual.

          Again, I don’t expect you to accept any of this. You’re probably going to say you’ve “been there, done that” again. I can only give my perspective. But it’s these kinds of “evidences” that go much deeper and are much stronger and more real to me than any intellectual argument will ever overcome.

        • Nan says:

          Mel, it isn’t that I don’t “accept” what you’re saying. It’s simply that I don’t believe it’s all attributable to a god or, as you put it, “following Jesus.” You can choose to be pretty much any person you want to be. This isn’t to say that environmental factors such as childhood abuse, neglect, etc. often come into play, but even they can be treated/overcome without resorting to a supernatural entity.

          And the “appreciation of life and of the natural world around me” that you speak of is just as natural for me as it is for you.

          I know we will never agree on this but I think it’s important for Christians to recognize that life can be pretty darn great on the “other side” … without all the rules and regulations that many/most denominations expect of them. Or the consequences the bible declares.

          AND I’d like to add … we’re not all “hardcore” atheists or anti-theists. Some of us simply “non-believers.” 🙂

        • Mel Wild says:

          I would agree. I don’t think you need to be a believer to enjoy life. And I know you’re not a “hardcore non-believer,” which I appreciate. Most people in the world are not combative about it (either secular or religious).

          The fact is, the existential issues of life cannot be proven or disproven by science or physical evidence. One must make up their own mind in other ways,

          And again, my point is that it’s the extreme view on both sides that’s the problem, not the problems themselves. I think reasonable and honest believers and non-believers can work together on the issues and challenges of life without irreconcilable discord. It’s just a long-believed myth that faith and science are inherently at war with one another.

  9. Arkenaten says:

    It’s just a long-believed myth that faith and science are inherently at war with one another.

    Not war, but a tiresome ”battle” that normal people have to deal with when idiots want creationism and intelligent design taught in schools.
    When the religious indoctrinate kids, no matter how subtly, that there will be eternal consequences for not admitting one is a sinner(sic) and following Jesus the Nazarene.
    And there are a myriad other vile and nonsensical practices in Christianity alone and we haven’t even touched on Islam or Judaism.

    Have your faith. You are welcome to it.
    Just stop trying to make everyone else have it as well.
    And leave the children alone .

    • “….there are a myriad other vile and nonsensical practices in Christianity alone..”

      True. But what makes them “vile”? By what standard do we measure “vile”? I come
      from a childhood filled with some pretty vile stuff, but all done in the name of atheism and rationalized as acceptable. They didn’t see anything wrong with. For us to even measure “vile,” we must first have a standard of morality in which to fall short of. If people are simply clumps of cells,random bits of biological goo,than there is no moral argument against mistreating them.

      • Arkenaten says:

        You can start with possibly the largest genocide in human history.
        Add the US slave trade to this.

        There’s your ”standard of morality”
        right there.

        • Mel Wild says:

          But IB’s point is that if we’re just our biology, why is genocide or the slave trade immoral? There is no chemical or scientific reason for this conclusion. It’s just survival of the strong over the weak, right?

        • Arkenaten says:

          If you seriously have to ask this question and include such utterly asinine uncaring remarks then you are already too far indoctrinated to understand.
          Or, you are just being a complete Dick.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Thanks for your devastatingly logical argument, Ark. I’m just indoctrinated and a complete Dick. But answer the question.

          So, if we’re just our biology, why is anything immoral? I’m not condoning genocide or slavery, I have a reason for finding it abhorrent. I’m just wondering how you can make this argument based on your naturalistic worldview. If “selfish genes” control our existence, how is this immoral?

        • Arkenaten says:

          The reasons have been trotted out time and time again and it is for things like this that I wrote above about the ”battle” with stupid idiots who continue to ask such smug, asinine questions. Questions which demonstrate beyond any shadow of doubt why people like you are simply ignorant cretins.

          When you at least take the time to study human evolution, even the periphery stuff which you can find on Wiki then maybe we can have a reasonable conversation.
          But until then you will simply come across like a bloody idiot every time this morality issue is raised.

          Until then I suggest you take your bible and use it to wipe your backside for all the ”good” it has ever done you.
          Now, tell me how angry I am and how much I hate ”God”.

        • Mel Wild says:

          You still haven’t answered the question about why morality. It’s only asinine to you because, apparently, you cannot answer it, so you go into your dismissive name-calling rant (as per the usual).

          Well, Ark, since we’re such ignorant cretins, tell us how evolution explains why we exist. And how do our genes determine our morality and ethics? Seems to me that survivability has nothing to with whether something is right or wrong. It’s whatever is most expedient, right? I’m just trying to understand your logic here. It doesn’t seem like a coherent argument to me. I suppose it’s because I’m just an indoctrinated and ignorant cretin, right?

        • Arkenaten says:

          If we follow your logic and attribute our morality to your god it tells a very enlightening picture as to how you Christians have interpreted your god’s word.
          And in fact this is EXACTLY what has been done.
          It paints a very clear picture that you do not even try to offer a simple humble apology for the genocide of Native Americans.
          Oh, and yes, you are just an indoctrinated cretin.
          And you can add moron to this as well if you like.

        • Mel Wild says:

          All that cherry-picking the worst parts of Christian history would show is people acting out in a wrong understanding of following Jesus. It’s evil human beings doing things in the name of religion, that’s all. Just like atheist Stalin slaughters millions of people in the name of socialism…because Stalin was an evil person.

          So, tell me, Ark. Are you a moron then for having no clue why you exist and for having no basis for your morality, even though you like to push your morality on us? Just wondering…

        • Arkenaten says:

          There is no GOOD part of Christian history.
          Yep Stalin was a monster all right.

          I notice you STILL havce nothing to say about the Christian morality that saw the worst genocide in human history and slavery that the American economy was founded on.

          Tell me, do you preach this level of stupidity at your church , Mel?

        • Mel Wild says:

          What is your scientific basis for morality and ethics since evolution is based on survivability of genes?

        • Arkenaten says:

          No, Mel, ethics and morality are derived from your god, Yahweh/ Jesus the Nazarene.
          We have concrete evidence of this, as there are many biblical examples of your god’s morality which Christians have referenced for over two thousand years.
          Historical examples are numerous and include the genocide of the Native Americans, Slavery, The Inquisition, Apartheid, many cases of Colonialism, the slaughter of billions of animals, child abuse, and misogyny.
          I could go on but I haven’t got the stomach to list everything.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Thanks for proving your own indoctrination into the religion of anti-theism. Greg Epstein (not a theist but the Humanist Chaplain at Harvard) defined your tactics as follows:

          “Anti-theism means actively seeking out the worst aspects of faith in god and portraying them as representative of all religion. Anti-theism seeks to shame and embarrass people away from religion, browbeating them about the stupidity of belief in a bellicose god.” (Less Antitheism, More Humanism,” Huffington Post, October 1, 2007).

          That’s YOU to a tee, Arky old boy.

          But I am glad you have no stomach to go on. Your ridiculous assertions are getting very tiresome. I’m done here.

        • Arkenaten says:

          I keep telling you there are NO good aspects of faith in your god or any god.

          Ridiculous assertions?
          The genocide of the Native Americans is ridiculous?
          Well Fuck You too then Mr. Wild.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Thanks for not even understanding what I said (for the 100th time).
          Let me know when you can make a coherent point without going into a tantrum.

        • Arkenaten says:

          That was not a tantrum! It was a very controlled and deliberate Fuck You too.
          So, Mel, nothing to say about the US slave trade or the genocide of the Native Americans based on your Christian Yahweh/Jesus derived morality?

        • Mel Wild says:

          I already answered your token accusations, Ark. You are either too dense to understand what I said or you don’t really care. Either way, I am done here. I’ve let you and JohnZ blather on and on and on here long enough. The conversation has long lost its usefulness.

        • Arkenaten says:

          You mean …

          ”God made me want to do them instead of have to do them because my nature is changing. ”

          Yeah .. we know , Mel.

        • john zande says:

          Moral behaviour is inherently selfish. By acting well I’m an encouraging others to act well, and I benefit from that stability. It’s recipriocal. It makes for a better, safer, more prosperous society.

        • Mel Wild says:

          Moral behaviour is inherently selfish. By acting well I’m an encouraging others to act well, and I benefit from that stability. It’s recipriocal. It makes for a better, safer, more prosperous society.

          That’s all fine and dandy, but you have no scientific proof for that. How do you prove encouragement, scientifically. It seems you have to smuggle in something other than biology to make your case. And if a gene is inherently selfish, then why do people do selfless acts that results in their own destruction? That would seem to contradict your argument of a biologically programed selfish motivation.

        • john zande says:

          Stable, educated societies following the rule of law aren’t evidence?

          Interesting…

        • Mel Wild says:

          How does biology prove that? Why are there laws?

          Yes, it is interesting to me how you subtly smuggle this into science. Again, pure scientism at work.

        • john zande says:

          Men write laws. Laws like not stoning children to death for cursing their parents.

        • Mel Wild says:

          And that proves your point how?

        • john zande says:

          You asked, “Why are there laws?”

          I answered.

          Would you be happier in a society that stoned children to death, or a society that had outlawed that?

        • Mel Wild says:

          But how does that prove that our biology is behind these laws? Shouldn’t we be like the animal kingdom and just fight for survival? Why do we need to write down laws to mitigate this? How does biology answer this? And how does the selfish gene explain the highest valued sacrifice, when someone gives up their life (survivability) for the benefit of another? How can a selfish gene allow that in this individual?
          Can you just admit that you cannot explain this with the selfish gene?

        • john zande says:

          Any particular reason why you’re ignoring the human phenomena of memes… the basis of societal development?

          Your happiness (your wellbeing, and the wellbeing of those around you) is quantifiable.

          Sociologists measure it all the time. Bhutan even has a happiness index, the GNH: Gross National Happiness.

          This is all enlightened self-interest. It’s selfish to be good.

        • Mel Wild says:

          John, forget it. Instead of answering my questions, you just ask another inane question. I’ve let you talk long enough. Again, believe whatever you want.

        • john zande says:

          I didn’t ask a question.

          But I see you’re embarrassed by pushing “genes” when you really should have been contemplating “memes.”

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