The Cosmic Christ

As an old gospel song goes, we’ve got to get a bigger picture of Jesus. He’s so much bigger than the religious veneer of Christianity makes Him out to be.

As I’ve shared many times before, Paul describes the Cosmic Christ in the ancient creed that predates his writing. Here is that creed, recorded in Colossians. I’ve highlighted some of the key phrases: 

15 He is the image of the invisible God,
    the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created
    in heaven and on earth,
    the seen and the unseen,
    whether thrones or angelic powers
    or rulers or authorities.
All was created through Him and for Him.
17 He exists before everything,
    and in Him all holds together.
18 He is the head of the body, His community.
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead—
    so that He might come to have first place in all things.
19 For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him.
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
    making peace through the blood of His cross—
    whether things on earth or things in heaven! (Col. 1:15-20 TLV *)

As I said in “Logos: the structuring Reality of everything,” when we say the Logos was with God and the Logos was God (John 1:1), we’re not talking about mere text. We’re saying that Christ Himself is what gives the cosmos its existence and meaning.

Theologically speaking, the writer of Hebrews expresses Christ’s true nature this way:

And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (Heb.1:3 NASB *)

In my book, Sonshift: Everything Changes in the Father’s Embrace,” I made the point that our theology should be expressed as heart language, in terms of endearment—in art, poetry, music, in beauty and intimacy—not some dry stainless-steel dissertation of a distant deity:

“God is a creator, not a technician. Everything about Him flows like perfect poetry.

And you are His masterpiece, sculpted from heaven for glory! For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago. (Eph. 2: 10 NLT)”

The glory of God is best contemplated with childlike fascination and wild-eyed wonder while lying barefoot in the grass under a starry summer night. For He is the ultimate artist and the universe is His canvas. It speaks volumes about the One who lavishly paints endlessly diverse sunsets and who the poets of Scripture tell us spreads out the galaxies like a tapestry before us.” (p. 109-110)

What’s interesting is that physicists and cosmologists are now describing star clusters as a “jewel box” and the universe as “elegant.” Everything moves and spins and vibrates with energy and life in what’s been called a “cosmic dance,” as I mentioned in “Everything in relational.”

This awesome wonder, for me, is the essence of what Scripture means by the fear of the Lord, the beginning of true wisdom. It’s revelatory, it’s reverential shock and awe, the splendorous magnificence of God’s majesty that’s so overwhelming I cannot help but worship Him in humble adoration. It’s breathtaking in its ever-increasing glory as I try to take it in with child-like wonder.

But it’s also the unfathomable and indescribable nature of His gracious love. David said it best about the wonder of God’s glory in His other-centered, self-giving love:

When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained;
What is man that You take thought of him,
And the son of man that You care for him?
Yet You have made him a little lower than God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty! (Psalm 8:3-5 NASB)

It’s not the heavens that we worship, but Christ, the maker of heaven and earth.  As the ancient followers of God believed, His first “Bible” was nature itself.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard. (Psalm 19:1-3 NKJV)

And this means we can worship this Cosmic Christ through science, too! Here’s a video clip from the 2017 Biologos Conference where Deborah Haarsma talks about this glory and wonder from the perspective of being both a scientist and a Christ follower. Dr. Haarsma was a former professor and chair in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan and is the current president of The Biologos Foundation.

Dr. Haarsma shares three aspects of the Cosmic Christ and why she sees God’s glory in His creation as an astronomer:

1. The Glory of Christ
2. Christ’s power reversal
3. The love of Christ

As Dr. Haarsma says, that glory we see in the universe is the glory of Christ. He is worthy of our worship! I hope you enjoy this brief lecture by Dr. Haarsma.

* All emphasis added.
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About Mel Wild

God's favorite (and so are you), a son and a father, happily married to the same beautiful woman for 37 years. We have three incredible adult children. My passion is pursuing the Father's heart in Christ and giving it away to others. My favorite pastime is being iconoclastic and trailblazing the depths of God's grace. I'm also senior pastor of Cornerstone Church in Wisconsin.
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78 Responses to The Cosmic Christ

  1. Beautiful,Mel! You make me feel not so crazy. 🙂

    There’a nothing wrong with head knowledge or our ability to reason and rationalize, it’s just that it limits our ability to understand things. You have to feel and experience things,smell the roses,listen to the music. I call that sneaking in under the radar, because God has often caught me unaware, slipping past all that resistance, and religion, even.

    True, we don’t worship creation, but we sure do worship the Artist.

    • Mel Wild says:

      Thanks, IB. It’s very true. Until we experience something (smell the roses, etc.) we don’ really know it. This is why it’s bound in relationship, and that relationship is bound up in God. A beautiful thing to behold (and be absolutely stunned by!)

  2. Arkenaten says:

    But it’s also the unfathomable and indescribable nature of His gracious love.

    We have examples of this ”love”(sic) throughout the bible. It is rather perverted and I for one would have none of it even if you god-man were real.

    • Mel Wild says:

      The perversion, as you say, is not God or His love, and you would know that if you understood the Bible.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Well you are the Professional.
        But mush of the Old Testament is little more than a litany of perversion. And the new isn’t much better either.
        Then again, maybe you have a different understanding of love than normal people?

      • Mel Wild says:

        I like how you say this about God, as if you are the professional in judging His love. I doubt you understand it at all. But just know that it’s His love that allows you say such things and continually reject Him.

        And only you would find something ugly to say on a post about beauty. You only sound bitter and resentful here.

      • Arkenaten says:

        So, I am curious, how do you equate genocide with love?
        How do equate Revelations with love?

        I am interested in your perspective.

      • Mel Wild says:

        What genocide are you talking about? And what is your understanding of Revelation?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Are you now being dense on purpose?
        or do you simply not understand the word genocide?
        So you have not read Revelation then
        Is this why you are unsure of it’s meaning and are asking for clarification?

        And of course the blood sacrifice. This is hardly evidence of love is it?

      • Mel Wild says:

        I’m asking you since you made the claim that God is genocidal. You seem to have a full understanding of Revelation. Back your claim.

      • Arkenaten says:

        So ….
        The global flood.

        In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.

        According to Revelation 9:7-19, God will make horse-like locusts with human heads and scorpion tails, who torture people for 5 months. Then some angels will kill a third of the earth’s population. If he came today, that would be 2 billion people.

      • Mel Wild says:

        Okay, one thing at a time. We can talk about the flood and the Old Testament another time. We can focus on Revelation for now since you brought it up.

        So, why do you say that God is making horse-like locusts, etc.? Where does it say that? Who is the one tormenting people here? And are you reading this literally?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Now you want to Cherry Pick the bible to find claims that you feel more comfortable with as you have been schooled appropriately with the relevant apologetic?
        No, lets start at the beginning and work through.
        That way we can get a full measure of the character of the god you worship.
        Where is the evidence of love found in a global deluge that annihilates the entire population of the world?

      • Mel Wild says:

        No, I’m not cherry-picking, I’m taking one point at a time, Ark. You make these sweeping accusations and never back them up. You brought up Revelation, we’ll start there.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Nope. The flood genocide is as good a place as any and it illustrates perfectly the megalomaniacal nature of your god.
        Unless of course you can offer a plausible, reasonable explanation for the description of the global genocide described in Genesis?
        I mean, it did happen didn’t it?

      • Mel Wild says:

        More avoidance I see. So, you’re the one who’s cherry picking. I asked you to back your claim. I’m just trying to determine if you can ever do that.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Always. I quoted you the passage from revelation as you continue to refute the genocidal god you worship.
        There seems to be only two answers.
        Either you are simply lying or the examples I have listed – revelation and the global flood are simply fiction.
        So, you tell which one it is – lying or fiction?

      • Mel Wild says:

        I asked you questions about your Revelation reference. Waiting for your answers.

      • Arkenaten says:

        revelation is self explanatory. Or are you going to tell me there is a special interpretation?
        Or it is simply piece of fiction of course?

        >Perhaps they had special drugs on Patmos, was it?

      • Mel Wild says:

        Revelation is self-explanatory? Haha…that’s a new one! And, of course, you just wave it away with your pat non-answer, “it’s simply a piece of fiction.” That’s how you answer everything, Ark. Whatever…but you still haven’t answered the questions. Why do you say that God is making horse-like locusts here, and where does it actually say that? Who is the one tormenting people here? And now you bring up another question: if you’re dismissing it as complete fiction then how can you use Rev.9:7 as an example that describes God’s nature? Are you arguing for God now by saying He’s not like this?

      • Arkenaten says:

        You truly are a disingenuous person Mel.
        The passage on revelation talks about destroying a third of the human population.
        Currently around 2 billion people .That is genocide. And some people consider the bible must be taken literally or one is not a true christian.
        The global flood destroyed all human life bar one soon to be incestuous family. That too is genocide.

        It is either fiction or you are a liar and your god is a genocidal maniac..
        You tell me which it is?

      • Mel Wild says:

        I am disingenuous? You’re the one making sweeping claims about the nature of God and not backing it up, or even answering my questions. And I’m not asking you what “some Christians” think. I’m asking you how you are reading it.

        I asked you to explain what you mean. WHO is destroying these people? Who is destroying one third of the earth? You are claiming it’s God Himself. Where does it say that? And in Revelation 9, who are these locusts? You can’t just make sweeping accusations and not back up your claim.

      • Arkenaten says:

        I have pointed out several instances in the bible of what is universally recognised as genocide perpetrated by your god.
        Either these accounts are tales of fictions or they are not and you are a liar.
        Is is a simple straight forward choice.
        You are the professional theologian. YOu get PAID to know and understand this stuff.
        So even though I am not a member of your paying flock I am asking you to simply tell me which of the two choices I have offered you is the right one. Fiction. or Liar.

      • Mel Wild says:

        You are still not answering my question. WHO was behind the references you made in Revelation?

      • Arkenaten says:

        You are once more trying to be clever.
        You are the paid professional.
        Who do you tell your flock (if they ever bother to ask) was behind the reference to slaughter several billion humans?

        And was the global flood a work of fiction or are you lying about your god being a genocidal manaic?

      • Mel Wild says:

        And you are deflecting. Answer my questions or stop wasting my time and keep your unsubstantiated opinion to yourself.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Ah … so you are afraid to answer. As it always is.
        Well we know most of the bible is fiction and we also know that you are wont to defend and deflect and not answer many straightforward question honestly so in light of this I will venture that at times you also have a penchant for telling lies, albeit with your fingers crossed. questions
        And when it comes to being honest about the bible you a also a monumental coward of the first degree.

      • Mel Wild says:

        No, you are the one who’s afraid to answer. You are the one with the penchant for making sweeping accusations and then deflecting when asked what you mean by them. If anyone is a coward, it’s you. You are wasting my time.

      • Arkenaten says:

        The verse is there in revelations.
        The description of the flood is there in Genesis. Are they real or fiction?
        If you consider they are real then your god is a genocidal monster.
        If they are fiction then perhaps he is not.
        One or the other.
        You’re the professional pastor. You are paid to know this stuff. So decide and tell me.

      • Mel Wild says:

        Ark, I am asking YOU the question. Stop deflecting. What exact verses in Revelation? You mentioned Rev.9:7. So, who is doing this alleged genocide? I’m just wondering if you will ever actually intelligibly answer a question that’s asked of you when you make these outrageous claims.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Who is ”doing” or who is commanding?

      • Mel Wild says:

        Well, that’s basically what I’m asking you. Who are the locusts? Where did they come from?

      • Arkenaten says:

        As far as I a concerned Revelation is palpable nonsense as is most of the bible.
        The point being while I do not beleive it you and one or two others most certainly do.

        So much like Noah’s Ark and the flood the question remains open.
        Do you consider it/these tales fiction or do you believe they represent historical fact?
        If fact then your god is a genocidal monster.
        If fiction then we have nothing to worry about do we?
        You are the paid professional.
        I am waiting for you expert opinion.
        Fact or fiction, Mel?

      • Mel Wild says:

        As far as I a concerned Revelation is palpable nonsense as is most of the bible.

        Then you cannot make your claim that God is a megalomaniac. You would need to prove that Scripture says that. You say it’s all fiction, therefore, according to you, God is not actually a megalomaniac. Your opinion is utter nonsense.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Now surely we are not going to sink to arguing silly semantics, Mel, are we?

        I have stated before that I do not believe the stories in the bible and it is simply historical fiction, and the evidence bears this out.

        YOU are the one who has to decide whether you consider it is factual or not as this will determine your world view, much as it determines mine.

        A fictional piece of literature can still have a meglomaniacal monster as it’s leading character, but the story will … or at least should not have any impact on a person’s worldview.
        Only a psychopath would consider worshiping someone like Freddy Kruger, or Hannibal Lechter, as I am sure you will agree without a moments hesitation.
        So the question is still out there for you to answer.

        Are the stories of the global flood and the other barbaric acts of genocide, including those depicted in cryptic form in Revelations to be considered fact or are they fiction?
        You are the paid, professional, how do you teach these stories?
        Fact or fiction?

      • Mel Wild says:

        A fictional piece of literature can still have a meglomaniacal monster as it’s leading character, but the story will … or at least should not have any impact on a person’s worldview.

        Of course, but YOU made the claim that God is the megalomaniac monster, not me. You mentioned Revelation as an example. I asked you to show me how you came to this conclusion based on the text, which you have not done, I asked you a very direct question about who is doing the genocide. Again, no answer. So I have no reason to say anything to your claim except to say that it’s “palpable nonsense.” It means nothing. In fact, you have proven, over and over again, that you just make baseless accusations that you yourself know nothing about because you obviously cannot back up.

        Only a psychopath would consider worshiping someone like Freddy Kruger, or Hannibal Lechter, as I am sure you will agree without a moments hesitation.

        Of course, but you haven’t proven that God is actually like Freddy Kruger or Hannibal Lechter. You must prove your claim. Until then, we’re just wasting our time here.

      • Arkenaten says:

        But he is a megalomaniacal monster, whether the work is fact or fiction.

        I asked you to show me how you came to this conclusion based on the text, which you have not done,

        The flood in genesis is the unconscionable act of a monster.
        There are many more examples.
        Or do you have a ready apologetic to justify the murder of millions?

        Of course, but you haven’t proven that God is actually like Freddy Kruger or Hannibal Lechter. You must prove your claim. Until then, we’re just wasting our time here.

        We can prove the flood story is fiction.
        So therefore there was no god involved.
        But the character in the story is most definitely a monster.

        The question I am asking, is do you teach this – and the other barbaric tales featured in the bible – including the doctrine of Hell and the cryptic stories in Revelation alluding to genocide as fact or fiction to your congregation?

      • Mel Wild says:

        What does this have to with Revelation? I will talk about the flood after you prove to me that He’s the monster in Revelation. You keep calling God “barbaric” or “megalomaniac” but you obviously know nothing about the Bible. So, you have not made a legitimate point, other than that you take uninformed potshots at something you are totally ignorant about.

      • Arkenaten says:

        The text describes the genocide of a third of humanity.
        Are you saying you do not know where this is described in Revelations.Yes or no?

      • Mel Wild says:

        Okay, first, WHO is committing this genocide here? And the second thing you MUST determine is whether this is describing a literal destruction or an allegorical or phenomenological description of something else. It’s apocalyptic language, so genre is critically important.

      • Arkenaten says:

        This is the point I was making. It matters not if it is fact or fiction as the action still alludes to genocide, which is not the action of a loving god. Furthermore, the book is supposedly inspired by your god.
        So we can take it as a given
        that your god is behind every act of barbarism and genocide as recorded in the bible, whether the act is fiction or not ( or myth or analogy)
        Now, once more, do you teach /consider these acts as fact or fiction?

      • Mel Wild says:

        Wait a minute. Just because it mentions genocide doesn’t mean that God is genocidal. It matters greatly WHO is doing it. Do you also blame the Allies in WWII for Hitler’s genocide of the Jews?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Are you actually suggesting that your god did not command or enact genocide?

      • Mel Wild says:

        I’m actually wanting you to prove that He is. You said He was behind the deaths of a third of the planet in Revelation, but you have shown me nothing.

      • Arkenaten says:

        He was behind the deaths of a third of the planet in Revelation,

        Aahhh. I see your problem.
        Obviously what is promised in Revelation has not yet transpired, so in effect , no , your god has not murdered a third of the inhabitants of the planet ….. yet.
        So yes, you are correct.
        Your god has not committed genocide as per revelations. But he intends to.
        Hope you are clear on this now?

        But he HAS committed genocide with the flood and several other episodes in the bible.,
        So, do you teach these episodes as fact or fiction, Mel?

      • Mel Wild says:

        No, you’re still not answering what I’m asking. Even IF Revelation is already past, was it God who murdered one-third of the earth in Rev. 9?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Well obviously your god is responsible.
        What a silly thing to say.

      • Mel Wild says:

        If you think this, then using your logic, the Allies were responsible for Hitler exterminating the Jews.

        In other words, is God responsible for every evil thing that people do on the earth, Ark?

      • Arkenaten says:

        No, the bible is god breathed. Your god commanded the angels and thus your god was ultimately responsible for the vision that saw the extermination of a third of humanity.

        Now, do you consider these tales fact or fiction?

      • Mel Wild says:

        No, that is not what is happening. Nowhere does it say that. Revelation 9 is talking about something evil killing people, not God. You have it backwards.

        I consider Revelation mostly allegorical. It describes itself from the very beginning as symbolic (Rev.1:1). Most Bible scholars see it written in a Jewish apocalyptic genre, describing the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD, with some allusions to future events. But, either way, you cannot take Revelation 9 with wooden literalism. That’s ridiculous. And the antagonist is not God there. It’s demonic in nature.

      • Arkenaten says:

        But, either way, you cannot take Revelation 9 with wooden literalism.

        I don’t you very silly man. I am not a Christian.
        It is all nonsense as far as I am concerned.
        But YOU believe it is god-inspired or breathed and hence build your worldview around the tales on the bible, whether it is analogy or fact.

        Whatever it is, the actions described in the bible are not those of a loving god.

        So, now let’s look at the various other forms of genocide enacted or commanded by your god.
        First, Genesis: Start with the Flood.
        Did you god enact genocide. Yes or no.
        Do you teach this as fact. Yes or no?

      • Mel Wild says:

        No, Ark, you cannot just dismiss it and say God is a monster if He is not the one doing it. You totally take the Bible out of its context and then paint God with your judgmental brush. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about here.

      • Arkenaten says:

        What is the context of your god enacting a genocidal flood, then?
        It is either fact or fiction.
        Simply tell which one you think it is and which one you teach, Mel.
        Fact or fiction?

      • Mel Wild says:

        Have to go. We can talk about what’s going on with the flood next time.

      • Arkenaten says:

        And why would you trust a degenerate atheist, like me, right? Why indeed?
        Therefore, here, from the righteous pen of your fellow Christians ….

        When Jesus was on earth as a man, he was a Hebrew, and now in his capacity as Jehovah’s royal Executioner he is called by the Hebrew name Abad’don, which means Destruction. (Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; 12:23; 14:19) In the Greek in which the inspired Christian Scriptures were written his similar title is Apollyon, which means Destroyer. This name clearly shows that he comes to the throne at God’s right hand to rule first in the midst of his enemies and to destroy them in execution of Jehovah’s righteous judgment, Jehovah’s judicial decision against them.–Jas. 4:12.

        Jesus as your god’s OFFICIAL executioner wipes out a third of the human population.
        If he were to return tomorrow this be approximately 2 billion plus people.

        This is your loving god?

        No thanks! You can keep him.

      • Mel Wild says:

        First, Thanks for quoting some really bad theology. It doesn’t make God a monster, Ark. You cannot rightly get that interpretation from the text itself. So don’t put that on God. There are all kinds of “Christians” who make God out to be a monster with their theology, but that doesn’t mean they’re right or that God actually is a monster.

        Here’s a hypothetical consideration for you to answer. What if an evil warlord and his army came to your city, declared martial law, started killing everyone in sight, raping, pillaging, and demanding worship or death. How would you stop this atrocity? And, if you were God, what would you do? What does justice look like to you in this situation?

      • Arkenaten says:

        No, you have no right to state that their theology is bad and your’s is ”sweet”.
        It is all about interpretation.
        And before you tell me I cannot rightly do this or that woth your god then best you get you r own damn house sorted out first because these arseholes are preaching this as truth to kids, remember this sunshine?

        It is still in the bible. It is still discussing genocide.
        And the bible is god inspired.
        If not, then all you have to do is tell it is fiction.

      • Mel Wild says:

        No, you have no right to state that their theology is bad and your’s is ”sweet”.
        It is all about interpretation.

        Yes, it is all about interpretation. And that particular interpretation is totally contradictory with the nature of Christ, so I have every right to call it bad theology. And, interpretatively speaking, the forces described in Revelation 9 are clearly demonic in nature. They are not from God.

        And before you tell me I cannot rightly do this or that woth your god then best you get you r own damn house sorted out first…

        First, you are the one making the accusation about God. I am talking to you, and you are parroting bad theology to make your erroneous accusations about God. Second, I can’t control bad theology by Christians I have no connection with or authority to stop. I can disagree and come against the teaching, which I do on this blog and in my ministry.

        It is still in the bible. It is still discussing genocide.
        And the bible is god inspired.

        This point is both incoherent and incorrect. Just because something is written in the Bible doesn’t mean it’s God or that He even condones it. It’s often included to show the evil nature of what’s going on that God is totally against, or to refute a wrong depiction of God. “God inspired” doesn’t mean that the writers were omniscient or dictating text verbatim from God. The inspirational nature is often in what it says about us as human beings, and that it brilliantly reveals how a people experienced God throughout Israel’s history, even when the conclusions made from that experience were totally wrong. Jesus explains the true nature of God for us, not everything said about Him (Matt.11:27; John 1:18;14:7; Heb.1:1-3).

      • Arkenaten says:

        I consider YOUR theology bad. All of it.
        As I have said before, get your own damn house in order before you begin telling me about other Christians’ ”bad theology”.
        Geisler thought Licona had bad theology and he was driven out of his job.
        Craig has bad theology and champions Divine Command theory and he has a lot of support for this.
        So please don’t preach to me about ”bad theology”.

        Hugh Ross spews out bad theology all the time.

        Jesus explains the true nature of God for us,

        Yes, he is the alter ego of a genocidal monster. It is clearly apparent right there in the bible.
        If you deny this then you have to explain it the actions of his alter ego Yahweh.
        And once more, if it is fiction then simply say so .
        This does not negate that the character in the bible is a monster, but at least we know it is simply not to be taken as truth.
        If this is not the case and you are still asserting the text is fact and are going to champion a loving god then you are a suffering from some sort of mental aberration or you are a liar.

        Your god created everything – thus the ”demons” are his creation. Ergo, he/Yahweh/Jesus is responsible.
        You simply cannot hand wave this away.
        It is either fiction or your god is a literal genocidal monster.
        Period.

        If you are not prepared to make a definite statement then one can only draw the conclusion that you realise I am correct and you are now stuck between a rock and a hard place as the saying goes.

        It’s is about time you were honest, Mel.
        Your deceitful shenanigans are tiresome and if I were a believer and especially if I were a child then the example you are setting here is utterly shameful.

      • Mel Wild says:

        I consider YOUR theology bad. All of it.

        Considering your understanding of the Bible, I will take that as a compliment.

        As I have said before, get your own damn house in order before you begin telling me about other Christians’ ”bad theology”.

        I have no idea what you’re talking about here, Ark. What am I supposed to “get in order?” Agree with you? And your examples (Geisler, Licona, etc.) are only internal squabbles within the Fundamentalist groups. What does that have to do with anything?

        Your god created everything – thus the ”demons” are his creation. Ergo, he/Yahweh/Jesus is responsible.

        So, if your kid went out and shot someone, or worse, became a warlord and committed genocide, we should throw you in prison or try you for war crimes? Your logic is totally irrational.

        If you are not prepared to make a definite statement then one can only draw the conclusion that you realise I am correct and you are now stuck between a rock and a hard place as the saying goes.

        This statement is incoherent. I have no idea what you’re talking about. I can only surmise that a “definitive statement” is one that either agrees with you or fits your straw man version of Christian theology that you can easily knock down.

        Your deceitful shenanigans are tiresome and if I were a believer and especially if I were a child then the example you are setting here is utterly shameful.

        There you go again, making baseless accusations. What exactly are my “deceitful shenanigans,” Ark? You seem very free in throwing out these accusations at me and at every Christian who dare challenge you, even judging God, but you never back it up with anything substantially valid. It’s your baseless accusations that get tiresome.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Your faith has around 35,000 different sects.
        And here yo are trying to tell me that another Christians sect’s theology is bad!
        This is so ridiculous it is not even funny.

        The stories inn the bible are either fiction or fact.

        Is the story of Noah’s flood fact or fiction, Mel?

      • Mel Wild says:

        Your faith has around 35,000 different sects.

        Naving diversity doesn’t mean total division. We may disagree in doctrinal areas, but it’s Christ who unites us as one, not human doctrine.

        And here yo are trying to tell me that another Christians sect’s theology is bad!
        This is so ridiculous it is not even funny.

        That point doesn’t even make sense. How is calling something bad theology ridiculous? If it portrays God in a distorted light, it’s bad. We are not omniscient beings who have perfect understanding of Scripture. We all have areas of bad theology. Hopefully, we will be humble enough and open to this and improve our theology. The problem for you is you like to point to the worst versions of Christianity to make your straw man argument.

        Is the story of Noah’s flood fact or fiction, Mel?

        Since this is a common story in the ancient near Eastern cultures, there must be some truth to the story. The details of the flood narrative are unprovable, but it doesn’t automatically make them false. And “global” in the Bible can mean the surrounding region, not global as we think about it today. But, whether fact or fiction, the story speaks to us of deliverance, redemption, and the new creation.

        But let me ask you something since you’ve been challenging the morality of the flood, calling it genocidal. To commit genocide would be to intentionally wipe out a people to elevate yourself to power. For the sake of argument, let’s suppose the Flood story is true. How does this narrative demonstrate that God is genocidal?

        Let me ask it this way. Let’s say you are God. And you created human beings to be in relationship, to love, have families, fill the earth, be fruitful, and to live in harmony with nature. You gave them free will because love requires it. But because of unchecked violence and murder, over time they became so wicked that if nothing was done, every single human being would be lost. What would YOU do? What would be the “just” thing to do, Ark? You are the Judge.

      • Arkenaten says:

        How does this narrative demonstrate that God is genocidal?

        That you would even ask this question puts you in the same league as a supporter of Divine Command Theory.
        And this makes you an idiot and a disgusting human being.

        Please stay away from children. They deserve better.

      • Mel Wild says:

        That you would even ask this question puts you in the same league as a supporter of Divine Command Theory.
        And this makes you an idiot and a disgusting human being.

        Nice dodge, but my question is not Divine Command Theory. You have been judging God. Now, you get to be the judge, Ark. How would YOU answer the question? Don’t try to deflect it back on me like you always do. What action will you take as God? It has nothing to do with whether God can do whatever He wants. We’re talking about the normal understanding of justice here. What would be the “just” thing to do, Ark? You are the Judge.

        Again…you are God. You created human beings to be in relationship, to love, have families, fill the earth, be fruitful, and to live in harmony with nature. You gave them free will because love requires it. But because of unchecked violence and murder, over time they became so wicked that if nothing was done, every single human being would be lost. What would YOU do?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Not a dodge at all. What ever vestige of credibility you may have had up to this point just got flushed down the toilet, Mel.
        Sorry, you truly are not a nice person.
        You can stick your apologetics where the sun doesn’t shine.
        And I am serious. Try not to interfere with kids. They deserve a lot better, they really do.
        Have a day.

      • Mel Wild says:

        By what leap of logic are you now summarily dismissing me? Because I asked you a question? What are you afraid of, Ark? Man up and just answer the question. What does my question have to do with kids? You are seriously deflecting here.

      • Arkenaten says:

        No thanks.
        You have lost all respect.
        In fact you are not deserving of any to be perfectly honest.
        You have shown yourself to be nothing but a wheedling apologist.

        For a while I have been prepared to give you a little bit of the benefit of the doubt,not much, but a but, even when I blew my top over some of the utterly ridiculous things you’ve written.
        But it turns out that every charge leveled at you by Tildeb and John is spot on.

        Seriously , please stay away from kids.
        You are not a nice person at all.

      • Mel Wild says:

        Ark, your shaming here is baseless and ridiculous. But I must’ve touched a nerve by asking you to be the judge. Fair enough. But if you can’t handle these kinds of questions then stay off of Christian sites, pretending that you’re going to teach us a lesson. You not only don’t know what you’re talking about with the Bible, you’re not qualified to make any judgment on me as a person, so you can save your moralizing for your anti-theist club. You are only showing me here that your accusations cannot be taken seriously. And no other thinking person should either.

      • Arkenaten says:

        No, Mel, why would I have a nerve to touch regrading silly religious matters

        This is simply about how rather unsavory a person you truly are , that’s all, and that you are little more than charlatan.

        The fact you are now desperately trying to defend your position puts you in an even worse light.
        You would have been far better answering the question regarding the Flood honestly right off the bat.

        As I asked, please stay away from kids.
        They have enough on their plates without having to deal with the likes of you.

      • Mel Wild says:

        So, you’re just going to hide behind hurling insults and accusations at me? It looks like you’re the one not being honest here.

        First, I answered your question when I said I would. Then I said there’s no reason for me to not think there was some type of flood since it was a common story in the ancient near Eastern culture. Second, I told you that the details of the Bible narrative are impossible to prove, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t any merit to the narrative. But regardless of whether it’s fiction or true, it can speak to us of deliverance, redemption, and the new creation.

        Now I see that this question is your shibboleth for dismissing people out of hand as despicable human beings. How understanding and non-judgmental of you.

        You need to explain to me exactly how what I said here makes me “an unsavory person” and a “charlatan?” You love to throw out wild accusations and attack people’s moral character all the time, but you need to take some responsibility and back up your accusations or stop making them. It’s very unprofessional and actually annoying in mature conversation. If this makes me so unsavory, prove it by answering my question. The fact that you won’t answer my question only shows that you are just being dismissive and prejudicial, therefore your alleged accusations ring hollow and are without substance.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Good heavens’.
        Your defense gets longer and more drawn out with every reply. You are beginning to sound like Wally!
        You had you chance at honesty, and you weren’t interested.
        You refused to answer any question directly and continually resorted to hand waving and pithy excuses. Much like you are doing now.
        You need to reevaluate your whole faith thing, Mel, and ask yourself just why you behave in such a manner.
        And really, until you can be more honest , please, keep your views away from kids.

      • Mel Wild says:

        There is no truth to your statements here, Ark. You just go on not answering anything I have asked you to explain your accusations. You just keep on with more dismissive accusations.

        When you’re ready to talk like a grown-up let me know. Otherwise, stop wasting my time. Good-bye.

      • Arkenaten says:

        *Smile». You think your little petulant outburst will redeem your behaviour?
        Well …., maybe in your own eyes. As I said, you had your chance at honesty and you blew it.

        Maybe if you rethink your whole approach to this dialogue you could backtrack and begin afresh?
        You might find by not trying to be a clever apologist, but rather simply being truthful,honest, and straightforward will turnout to be quite a refreshing, change, Mel?

      • Mel Wild says:

        Petulant outburst, Ark? Really? Who is the one dismissing me out of hand, throwing out your wild accusations without so much as a legitimate explanation other than I obviously didn’t pass your shibboleth test? You’re the one being childish here. If you want to have an adult conversation with me then explain exactly how I’m being unsavory and a charlatan. Otherwise, keep your opinion to yourself.

        And, btw, when I talk to children, I certainly don’t treat them the way you treat me.

  3. Mel I want you to know I listened to you COMING HOME (Youtube) 2013 with your friend, Roland Waterman. Very inspiring. I really appreciate your testimony. Good going and may God bless you.

  4. Mel, just wanted to sneak in here and say your book is wonderful, validating, just what the Great Physician ordered. We’ve had some similar spiritual experiences and use some of the same metaphors, which made me laugh. I too have spoken about the church being like Sleeping Beauty awaiting her Prince. I’m sure I’ll have more to say later. 🙂

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