Now it’s time to deal with the elephant in the room. Is the history of Israel and Christianity based on a gigantic lie? Did Jesus and the New Testament writers get it wrong because they accepted the testimony of Moses and Israel’s Exodus? Deliverance from bondage in Egypt is the very heart of Israel’s story as a people.
We’ve already looked at the biased nature of historiography in part two. Now we need to look at the nature of archeology and see how that affects our understanding of the Old Testament.
The nature of archeology
Archeology, like historiography, is always biased. The rocks, bones, and pottery do not speak. Someone has to interpret and then extrapolate a theory from the interpretation. This is why we first must understand that archeology, by itself, cannot prove or disprove history. Sir Allen Gardiner, one of the most influential 20th Century Egyptologists, said this about archeology’s limitations:
“It must never be forgotten that we are dealing with civilization thousands of years old and one of which only tiny remnants have survived. What we proudly advertised as Egyptian history is merely a collection of rags and tatters.” (Egypt of the Pharaohs)
The rocks aren’t crying out
Archeologist Kathleen Kenyon worked on the ruins of Jericho in the early 1950s and discovered that the city had indeed been destroyed, but it was too early to be Joshua’s Canaanite invasion. Kenyon expected the evidence to be found in the 13th century, when the conventional chronology puts Joshua’s invasion, but she found there would not have been a city at all during this time. From this discovery, a wave of new skepticism started to sweep across the field of archeology.
Today, leading Israeli archeologists like Israel Finkelstein and even Rabbis like Rabbi David Wolpe say there’s no evidence for Israel’s exodus from Egypt. You might’ve seen documentaries like Nova’s “The Bible’s Buried Secrets” that reflects this modern archeological skepticism.
Understand that the whole argument for there being no archeological evidence is based on the traditional chronology of the Exodus. What’s ironic is that Egyptology was started by Christians in order to properly date Bible history; now it’s being used to erase Bible history.
But Egyptologist David Rohl (an agnostic) believes that archeologists have not found evidence for the Exodus because they’ve been looking for it in the wrong time period.
The rocks regain their voice!
The Exodus is traditionally placed during the reign of Rameses II (1279-1213 BC). But is this true? And if it actually happened long before Rameses, then it means that the chronology Egyptologists and skeptics have been working with for the last 50 years is all wrong. And we can make this case for three very good reasons.
First, a statue was found in 1896 from the reign of Rameses’ son, Merneptah, that mentions Israel called the “Merneptah Stele.” This Stele describes Israel being defeated by Merneptah which dates to 1208 BC. But that means Israel would’ve already had to have been an established nation-state in Canaan by then (post-Canaan conquest).
Second, there’s The Berlin Statue Pedestal, acquired in 1913 by Ludwig Borchardt from an Egyptian merchant. This tablet has the inscriptions of three tribes (Ashkelon, Canaan, Israel) which scholars say refers to either the time of Amenhotep II (ca. 1453–1419 BC) or Amenhotep III (ca. 1386–1349 BC). Either way, this would make the conventional dating for Israel impossible.
The third reason is based on a possible misunderstanding of the Bible text itself. We assume the Bible says it was Rameses who let Israel go. We’ve all seen The Ten Commandments with Yul Brynner as Rameses, right? It must be so!
Well actually, no…it just seems so. Let’s look at the text:
11 So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh. (Exod. 1:11 *)
But Rohl believes this was an anachronistic update by a later scribe. And he has a point. We also see a Rameses reference with regard to Jacob coming to live in Egypt with Joseph.
11 So Joseph settled his father and his brothers in Egypt and gave them property in the best part of the land, the district of Rameses, as Pharaoh directed. (Gen.47:11 *)
Obviously, Joseph predates Rameses by several hundred years so it could not literally mean the Rameses District but referencing a well-known location at the time it was written. This is typical of ancient Semitic writing. It would be like us saying “Iran” when talking about ancient Persia.
The fact is, there’s been a city discovered that’s buried under Rameses called Avaris (Tell el-Dab’a). Egyptologist Manfred Bietak has been digging in this site for the last 30 years. Avaris was populated by people who originated from Canaan, Syria-Palestine. This is the only such Semite settlement in Egypt during either period, so why could it not be the Israelites?
And when we use Avaris as the starting point, the Exodus story lines up almost perfectly.
A 2014 documentary film directed by Tim Mahoney called, “Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus” makes a strong case for this theory. What Mahoney believes he has documented is perhaps archeology’s best kept secret, that Egyptologists might’ve gotten their chronology wrong (by several hundred years). Even if this is new chronology is correct, mainstream archeologists will naturally be averse to even considering it since it could unravel a lot of their assumptions over the last 50 years.
This is just the beginning and the ramifications are huge! Rohl is not alone in this assertion as the debate over Egypt’s chronology is heating up in scholarly circles. I believe we’ll see some amazing confirmations for the Exodus story in the next 50 years.
Unfortunately, I cannot show the whole documentary so I will just show the trailer. If you want to investigate this further, I suggest you rent or buy the video on YouTube or get the DVD here. It’s an excellent documentary and well worth the expenditure.
UPDATE 08/30/17: If you have Netflix you can watch the documentary here.
In My Father's House 
Moving the date doesn’t help you.
If you take a 17th century BCE date, not 1400, you are adding 400 to 600 years to Judges, which means extensive interaction with kingdoms which only came into existence much later. Also bear in mind, according to the biblical chronology, Solomon built the (first) Temple 480 years after the exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). The temple was built (apparently) in 832 BCE, although no evidence of it has ever been found.
Now, even if you do move the date to better fit Jericho, there were 30 other cities David apparently sacked, which in many cases simply did not exist at this earlier time, or show no evidence of mayhem.
As it stands, only one city, Hazor, actually fits the Conquest narrative, although it’s impossible to say who (or what) destroyed the city.
And let’s not forget, Canaan was under Egyptian military rule at both the earlier or biblical dates. Egyptian administrative centers were located in Gaza, Yaffo and Beit She’an, as well as on both sides of the Jordan River. This striking presence is not mentioned in the biblical account, meaning the authros were simply not aware of this history.
Also, the 26 Stations. Etham, Pi-hahiriroth and Baal-zephon to name just three, simply didn’t exist in the 14th (or 17th) Century BCE, but did exist in the 7th Century, precisely when the tale was dreamed up… Precisely when the priest, Hilkiah, miraculously found the “ancient” books of the Torah (the scroll of the law, the Sefer Torah) hidden in a wall, telling this fantastic tale how his Kingdom, Judah, was in fact the center of the Jewish world. The same goes for Edom. We know through numerous extra-biblical sources that Edom would not become a named nation until 800 BCE, yet if we are to believe the narrative contained in the Pentateuch, it was in existence 1,000 to 1,200 years earlier.
The total absence of any evidence at Kadesh Barnea cannot also be ignored.
And, of course, there is no evidence whatsoever of an “arrival.” The hills where the kingdoms of Judah and Israel w0uld be founded were not inundated with 2.5 million “arriving” foreigners (with unique language, customs, technology, architecture, pottery etc) in the 14th or 17th Century BCE, rather they were settled 50 years after the landing of the Philistines on the Levant, in 1110 BCE.
This is the actual early history of the early kingdoms. They were refugees from the Canaanite coastal states.
The well-documented landing of the Philistines even explains why the Jews (as a cultural/identity matter) do not eat pork. In none of the settlements (there were 11 original villages for the first 100 years of the “settlement period”) were found pork bones. Not a single one, yet down on the Levant great middens have been unearthed in successive digs, all dating to after the arrival of the Philistines. It seems, archaeologists believe, that not eating pork was a way of distinguishing “us up here,” from those terribles “down there.”
Mel, we don’t even have Hebrew (which contains 22 letters) before the 10th century (Gezer Stone). It didn’t exist. If “Moses” wrote the first five books in the 15th/14th Century then he would have used Proto-Sinaitic, which contains 27 consonants.
What we’re taking is a 15th, possibly early 16th, century dating for Jericho, not 17th century. The conventional dating was 13th century, which is wrong. This new dating corresponds to the only collapse of Egyptian society in a thousand years. And in this period we know that Jericho was a fortified city, along with many other city-states like Hazor, Hebron, and Arad. These city-states and others were thriving and fortified during the Middle Bronze Age, then archeologists see a sudden destruction and burning on the land which brings an end to the Middle Bronze Age, followed by the Late Bronze Age (where conventional chronology had originally put the conquest). This is why archeologist don’t find evidence, because they assume the conquest was during the Late Bronze Age rather than near the end the Middle Bronze Age where it belongs. This is what people like Finkelstein believe.
There’s a lot of other historical problems that this new chronology fixes besides the Bible’s history. Historians have had to insert gaps in the histories of surrounding nations like Cyprus, Troy, Nubia, Greece, Syria, Phoenicia, and the Hittites because it was all based on Egypt’s chronology. Many of those gaps go away when Egypt’s dating is adjusted. I’m not an archeologist but this is explained very well in the documentary.
But, to be clear, I’m not arguing that everything in Joshua’s campaign was historically accurate. I believe there’s propagandist agenda by the writers (which the Old Testament itself debates internally). I will talk more about that in my next post. My point is that the Exodus is not just a made up story in the imagination of zealous scribes. It has factual data behind it, if we look in the right place.
Well, even that’s wrong, because the final destruction of MBA Jericho occurred late 16th, 17th century BCE.
It has factual data behind it, if we look in the right place.
And ignore everything else.
Mel, I can go on and on and on presenting evidence. But what’s the point? Your hand is already waving.
So, rather than me wasting my time, please present your supporting evidence for a later date, and explain the even greater historical inconstancies created by doing so.
Mel, you’d be wise to drop this effort of yours. It’s a fool’s errand. Follow the lead set by your colleagues, Jewish rabbis, who’ve accepted the fact that Jewish origin tale recounted in the Pentateuch is a 7th Century BCE work of historical fiction.
I did a post on this which was published in a shorter version. I won’t link it, because that sends the comment to Moderation. It is titled: “Of course what you say is true, but we should not say it publically.”
That is an actual quote, made by an Israeli scholar to Rabbi Wolpe after his now much quoted 2001 Passover Sermon.
To prove this point I would simply challenge you to present a single reputable archaeologist (preferably an Israeli, who holds tenure and has led digs in Israel and has published papers in recognised journals) and/or non-Orthodox Jewish Rabbi to categorically state, in writing: “The Patriarchs were real historical characters, the Israelites were in Egypt, Moses was an actual character, there was an exodus of some two-million people, followed by a triumphant conquest of Canaan.”
If there was any strength to your claims then surely this will be a simple exercise, correct?
You’re not really saying anything against my argument. Your dating for Jericho based on conventional dating, which people like Rohl say is off by centuries. In particular, the problem being in the period of the Egyptian kings of the Nineteenth through Twenty-fifth Dynasties, which should bring forward conventional dating by up to 200-350 years. So, the corrected dating of Jericho would be around 1450 BC.
There is no debate in dating later than 664 BC (the sacking of Thebes by Ashurbanipal). But before that is what’s contested with various chronological theories (The Revised Chronology of Immanuel Velikovsky, the chronology of Donovan Courville, the Glasgow Chronology formulated by members of Velikovsky’s Society for Interdisciplinary Studies in 1978.
“Rohl bases his revised chronology (the New Chronology) on his interpretation of numerous archeological finds and genealogical records from Egypt. For example:
– Rohl notes that no Apis bull burials are recorded in the Lesser Vaults at Saqqara for the Twenty-first and early Twenty-second Dynasties. He also argues that the reburial sequence of the mummies of the New Kingdom pharaohs in the Royal Cache (TT 320) indicates that these two dynasties were contemporary (thus explaining why there are insufficient Apis burials for the period). Rohl finds confirmation of this scenario of parallel dynasties in the royal burial ground at Tanis where it appears that the tomb of Osorkon II of the 22nd Dynasty was built before that of Psusennes I of the Twenty-first Dynasty. In Rohl’s view this can only be explained if the two dynasties were contemporary.
– Rohl offers inscriptions that list three non-royal genealogies which, when one attributes 20 to 23 years to a generation, show, according to Rohl, that Ramesses II flourished in the 10th century BC as Rohl advocates. In the conventional chronology, all three genealogies would be missing seven generations. He also argues that there are no genealogies that confirm the conventional dates for Ramesses II in the 13th century BC.
– One of Rohl’s methods is the use of archaeoastronomy, which he employs to fix the date of a near-sunset solar eclipse during the reign of Akhenaten and observed from the city of Ugarit. Based on calculations, using computer astronomy programs, Rohl asserts that the only time when this eclipse could have occurred during the whole second millennium BC was on 9 May 1012 BC. This is approximately 350 years later than the conventional dates for Akhenaten (1353-1334 BC).
– Rohl’s dates for Amenemhat III of the Twelfth Dynasty in the seventeenth century BC has found support in the work of astronomer David Lappin, whose research finds matches for a sequence of 37 out of 39 lunar month lengths recorded in 12th Dynasty contracts. The conventional chronology, on the other hand, matches at best 21. According to Lappin, this pattern provides “startling” support for Rohl’s chronology. (Wikipedia)
And Rohl makes a very sound argument in his books on the subject. You can read a summary here. Researchers like Rohl and Bimson say that the chronology problem lies in the dark periods in Egypt’s past. The biggest suspect is the very long “Third Dark Period,” which new information suggests it was overinflated by centuries. If it were reduced, the history of Egypt would have to move forward in time.
Regarding Jericho, you might to read Tell Es-Sultan (Jericho): Radiocarbon Results of Short-Lived Cereal and Multiyear Charcoal Samples From the End of the Middle Bronze Age (Hendrik J. Bruins, Johannes van der Plicht)
Carbon dating, Mel. The final destruction of MBA Jericho occurred during the late 17th or the 16th century BC.
Again, I won’t link due to your odd comments set-up.
Why are you even presenting someone’s four decades old ideas on Egyptian kings when no name is given for the king at the time?
I haven’t even heard of this Rohl before, and quick search of JSTOR tells me why. His only journal article is from 1992, Some Chronological Conundrums of the 21st Dynasty, which I can’t find referenced by a single scholar since its publication.
And what is Study of Interdisciplinary Sciences? From all I can find on it, it sounds more like a Sunday book club than an actual professional body.
Listen, I don’t want to attack the man, his work could be honest for all I know, but it says an awful lot if someone can’t get papers reviewed and published, and what is published isn’t cited by anyone, nor has it inspired others to follow his/her ideas.
If you want to stick to the actual story, and actual kings in direct relation to the story, then explain Pithom which the Israelites were apparently forced to build (Exodus 1:11). This site has been discovered to of in fact been a project of Egyptian King Necho II, placing its date of construction no earlier than 605 BCE; in plain sight to the authors of the narrative yet nothing but a barren field when the slaves were said to have been hauling stone.
You see, Mel, this is some of the ways we know the work is historical fiction. It was made to look and sound real, to give it authenticity, but time after time after time the author/s bumbled by citing 7th/6th Century places/peoples/animals that simply did not exist at the time the narrative is set.
You’re not really saying anything against my argument
You haven’t presented an argument. You’ve presented an unreferenced opinion based on one proposed dating of one city’s destruction.
There were 30 cities sacked by David, Mel.
Show me the published papers that clearly state this destruction lines up in one clean lightning-fast period.
Explain to me how this all happened under the nose of the Egyptians who had military garrisons across Canaan.
Mel, what you’re suggesting here is the equivalent of tiny Luxemburg invading, and conquering, France in 1942… without mentioning the 360 German Wehrmacht divisions in the country.
Explain the absence of the Stations at that later time period.
Explain the historical blunders, like naming the Philistines 400 (or in your case 600 to 700) years before they would even land.
Explain the absence of any “arrival” in the Judean hills until 1110 BCE.
Explain the total and complete absence of evidence at Kadesh Barnea where the Jews stayed for four decades. Where are the 2 million+ graves that should be there, Mel?
Explain how Egypt did not collapse economically at whatever date you want to pick.
Explain to me, Mel, why Moses’ birth narrative is lifted directly from the far older tale of King Sargon:
So, again, the challenge I put to you is to present a single reputable archaeologist (preferably an Israeli, who holds tenure and has led digs in Israel and has published papers in recognised journals) and/or non-Orthodox Jewish Rabbi to categorically state, in writing: “The Patriarchs were real historical characters, the Israelites were in Egypt, Moses was an actual character, there was an exodus of some two-million people, followed by a triumphant conquest of Canaan.”
If there was any strength to your claims then surely this will be a simple exercise, correct?
John, you’ve apparently copied and pasted your whole argument against the Exodus all the way to the time of David (hundreds of years after what my post has covered). You are just piling on here.
I addressed the “Rameses” reference in the post. The “Pithom” reference would the same answer, the scribe referring anachronistically to a contemporary geographic location when it was written that people would know at the time.
Actually, there was a collapse in Egyptian society as I mentioned before. It was the only one in a thousand year period that corresponds to the disappearance of the Semite slaves from Avaris. This is documented in the movie. I don’t have the time to answer all your points. I won’t be addressing you irrelevant points that go beyond the subject of the post.
David is Conquest Mel. It’s part of the Exodus narrative… which you’re talking about.
Or are we going down this same path again… You refusing to talk about the actual subject of the post?
Semite slaves? Are you sure you’re not meaning to say the hyksos? (they weren’t slaves, but foreign rulers, and they were kicked out).
I won’t be addressing you irrelevant points that go beyond the subject of the post.
And there it is!
Mel, again, refusing to discuss the subject of the post.
If you’re talking about King David, you’re off by several hundred years from the conquest. David was many generations after Joshua. So, no, it’s not relevant.
The remains they found at the Avaris settlement were mostly slaves not foreign rulers. They were sheepherders and from Canaan-Syria region.
Oh, my apologies, yes, Joshua. Sorry, brainfart.
Okay. That’s what I thought you probably meant but wasn’t sure.
Btw, I just found out the documentary is available on Netflix if you have that. You can go here online.
I don’t have it, but will look for it.
So, let me guess, you’re not going to address my comment?
Okay… I’ll file this aborted post with the others…
The remains they found at the Avaris settlement were mostly slaves not foreign rulers.
You’re getting your stories completely confused here, Mel. The Hyksos were kicked out of Egypt, and they were not from Canaan, but much further northeast in Syria and beyond.
The Hyksos are, though, an interesting thing. If there’s a kernel, they’re it. Perhaps a family or two of the Hyksos settled in Canaan, leaving the others to keep heading northeast. Generation after generation the story was told and retold (i believe the Americans call this the Phone Game), and the story morphed. We are, after all, talking about 700 odd years, and the narrative of a people coming from afar, after a period away, fitted well with what the Judean Yahwehist priests were trying to tell the Israelites.
Carbon dating does not settle the matter like you think it does. I looked up your reference and did some research of my own on the Carbon dating of Jericho. I found several places that quoted the following data:
“Initially, a C14 date of 1410 +/- 40 B.C. (done by the British Museum) was published for charcoal from the destruction level of Jericho (Jericho V [1983], p. 763). This was later found to be in error and corrected from 3080 +/- 40 BP to 3300 +/- 110 BP (Radiocarbon 32 [1990]: 74; BP = before present), which calibrates to 1590 or 1527 +/- 110 B.C., depending on how one reads the calibration curve (Radiocarbon 35 [1993]: 30). Additional tests were done on six grain samples from the destruction level resulting in dates between 1640 and 1520 B.C. and 12 charcoal samples from the destruction level resulting in dates between 1690 and 1610 B.C. (Radiocarbon 37 [1995]: 217). More recently, the Italians obtained two samples from a structure at the base of the tell that yielded dates of 1347 +/-85 and 1597 +/-91 B.C. (Quaderni di Gerico 2 [2000]: 206–207, 330, 332). The locus the samples were taken from appears to contain debris from the final Bronze Age destruction of the city.”
Overall, the C-14 dates from the destruction of Jericho range from as high as 1883 BC to as low as 1262 BC — a range of over 600 years.
This is from APXAIOC INSTITUTE OF BIBLICAL ARCHEOLOGY
“Carbon-14 Dates at Jericho and the Destruction Date”
So, putting Joshua’s destruction of Jericho in early-15th to 16th century BCE is plausible.
And the thirty other cities?
And the Egyptain military garrisons across Canaan?
This missing stations?
The cities that existed in the 7th/6th Century, but didn’t exist in either the 13th or 15th Centuries?
The complete absence of evidence at Kadesh Barnea?
The Philistines, 500 years before they’d even land?
The total absence of any arrival evidence, with settlement commencing only 50 years after the landing of the Philistines on the Levant?
Want me to go on…
Again, I’m not arguing for all 31 cities because the Bible refutes some of this internally. I will talk a little bit about that in my next post.
So you’re changing the entire story.
I see.
Got it.
No, I’m not changing anything, John. I’m going deeper than a superficial reading of the text. In one place it lists 31 cities that were conquered, then later mentions that many of them were not in another place. Some of this is probably scribal propaganda or hyperbole (which was the common way of describing victories in ancient Semitic writings.)
And I would appreciate you lightening up on your accusatory tone.
By “superficial reading of the text” you mean, by actually reading the story, as written.
Okay…
No, John. The Bible CANNOT be read like a textbook. It must be interpreted, both textually and culturally. And whatever conclusion you make must provide explanatory scope and power. Otherwise, you are misreading the text.
Ah, so the place names, the specific dates, the numbers of people, the time spent in certain stations, the routes taken, the warnings given… All to be interpreted
Got it.
But the supernatural things are all correct, aren’t they Mel… That actually happened.
Rohl’s chronology is not accepted, not even by Kitchen! And it is riddled with problems as John explains.
Rohl also believes in the Garden of Eden. How wonderful! And that tells you pretty much all you really need to know about the bloke ….
Of course Kitchen wouldn’t accept it. It directly contradicts the books he’s written on it! It would be too embarrassing to admit he’s off by 200-300 years. Admittedly, his is a minority view…now. But there is growing debate over the dates. We’ll see in the coming decades if that changes.
The New Chronology actually does address the alleged problems John explained. All of his arguments assume conventional dating, which is relative dating.
And since there’s no way for you to disprove the Garden of Eden, it’s pretty foolish to dismiss Rohl based on that. Keep in mind, he is NOT a Christian or religious at all. He has no reason to be biased toward these things.
The re dating still does not address Kadesh.
And it would be prudent if you also took that into consideration – something that Rohl has not, as far as I am aware.
And neither do most Christians.
And you might want to start by thinking abut the logistics of sustaining (pick a number) say 250,000 people ( if we re-evalute the biblical claims of 2.5 million -which Kitchen Wood and Hoffmeier accept as true! ) over a period of 38 years and at the same time wonder why there is No mention at all of this mass of people in the history of any neighbouring states.
But, even if we have no evidence for Kadesh (which I have not investigated) realize what you’re saying. Even though we have evidence for Israelites as slaves in Egypt, suddenly leaving, creating a collapse of Egyptian power, followed by the sudden destruction of Jericho and other cities like Hazor by fire, we also have the discovery of Joshua’s memorial at Har Eval (Mt. Ebal), but we have no evidence (yet) for Kadesh so none of it happened? That’s pretty desperate. Obviously they didn’t fly there. And also keep in mind that almost all archeology is based on discoveries of structures, cities, artifacts, which we would certainly not find since they built no buildings nor made pottery, constantly moving from place to place in a desert. This is why archeology cannot tell us everything.
Also, where are you getting the figure of 2.5 million people? That’s not in the Bible anywhere. That was made up by preachers. It was more like in the hundreds of thousands, maybe less. We know Avaris had about 25,000 to 30,000 residents (which would’ve been considered one of the biggest cities during this time), mostly slaves. Scholars believe there’s 20 other such settlements in the area yet to be dug up.
And we DO have an inscription at Hazor of Jabin and Joshua who killed this king. Another factor, the period represents the collapse of the Canaanite city-states so they wouldn’t be keeping records of people who conquered them. Most Stele’s and other ancient documents boasted of victories, not defeats. Even Finkelstein finds Semitic settlement beginning to show up after the collapse.
Then before you continue with your championing of Rohl don’t you think you ought to investigate?
After all, it is one of the more pertinent aspects of the supposed Exodus and one that should be up for serious investigation by all Christians.
Do you not think it odd that it is not regularly brought up for discussion?
I am assuming it isn’t as you have been a preacher and believer for a long time and have not investigated and don’t seem to have shown any inclination to have done so. And it is mentioned in the bible.,
The 2.5 million is an extrapolation of the biblical figure It said 600, 000 fighting men did it not? And there were women and kids and hangers on …. 2.5 million.) Easy peasy. But I also said was silly.
The inscription is a presumption. I saw a couple of interviews with Mahonney and he makes one or two leaps ( presumably based on Rohl’s interpretation) that are not so cut and dried.
So let’s sort out the commonsense issues surrounding Kadesh shall we, before we make all these ginormous leaps and declare ”The Exodus was real!!? I’ll take your figure of 30,000 if you like. Now,what would that figure likely be after 38 years in one place?
I am not a population expert so I’ll let you offer a number. I’m cool with anything you come up with.
Now explain how they sustained such a number over 38 years taking into account all the things you would expect a large population would need and what evidence you would expect to find.
Don’t forget they would also have to equip an army capable of invading Canaan and conquering it – even if not literally annihilating it.
And, remember, all this time no one in Canaan or any other surrounding state is aware of the Israelites.
Let me know what you think.
Let’s for once try to have a reasonable discussion and put aside all religious/atheist leanings for a while and see if we can come up with a scenario that explains it.
What do you say,Mel?
Ark, as per the usual, you bring up topics I didn’t address in the post and totally waved off my point. AGAIN…even IF there were no evidence for Kadesh, WE STILL HAVE ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE ON BOTH SIDES. We can place the Israelites in Egypt, their sudden disappearance, then appearance in Canaan. You don’t even address that. You just change the subject to the wilderness wanderings. All you have is an argument from silence.
Get real. ALL archeology is based on presumptions! What you have are bits of rocks, bones, or pottery that must be interpreted, then you extrapolate a THEORY based on the interpretation. It doesn’t conclusively prove or disprove anything. It can only lend credibility to a theory. That’s about it.
Wrong. You are drawing conclusions that and making assumptions by cherry picking.
Z
First of all you are assuming they were Israelites.
There is no hard core evidence to say they were.
And the evidence for their appearance in Canaan has been demonstrated to you by John and this is what the Internal Settlement Pattern reveals.
This is archaeological evidence Mel.
To dismiss Kadesh is to hand wave and wipe out the major part of the biblical tale. 38 years.
If you refuse to even discuss this then why should I bother to consider any thing you wish to offer?
I asked if we could address this issue without any bias on either part and you simply dismiss the suggestion.
Why are you afraid to even look at the Kadesh issue?
First, to say I’m wrong is your OPINION. It means absolutely nothing, Ark. You waste your time with such pointless assertions. You cannot prove it or disprove it. Second, John’s points are based on the conventional dating which my position is refuting. And as far as Avaris, we know these people were sheepherders and Asiatic people from Syria-Canaan region. The documentary lines up about a couple of dozen facts with the Bible’s testimony. The city was mostly slaves. There’s a special pyramid tomb found honoring a red-haired Semite, which is unprecedented in Egyptian history. Add to that, the bones are missing from the tomb (because Joseph’s bones were brought into Canaan). There was a sudden mass death of the male children (70%). There was the sudden disappearance of tens of thousands of these slaves from the settlement, never to return, followed by the only collapse in Egyptian society in over 1,000 years. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. The only problem is that mainstream archeology is stuck in the old paradigm.
I am not hand-waving Kadesh Barnea because it was not the subject of my post, but you are hand-waving everything I said in the post, arguing from silence about Kadesh, while ignoring all the evidence we actually do have when we use the new chronology.
I will look at the Kadesh issue when I have the time but that’s not what I’m talking about here.
I realise Kadesh was not the subject of your post but you cannot simply erase it from the equation.
I reiterate, it occupies all but two years of the supposed desert sojourn.
And all I asked was let’s have a discussion about it and what you think happened and what your thoughts are.
Again, neither of us are archaeologists.
Rohl’s chronology might be right, but it still leaves holes and still requires the acceptance of certain dynasties overlapping.
As you seem so exicited by this I can understand your fervour and also understand why being brought down to earth with Kadesh (especially as it is in the bible) can be somewhat deflating and dampens your excitement.
But if you wish to uncover the truth and not just a version that makes you feel happy then you have to include all aspects.
And even if Rohl’s dating was spot on 100% accurate there are a probably 101 questions i could ask that would cause you a lot more distress than Kadesh and would eventually have you hauling out the Faith Card.
You want to put aside your faith and try to deliver a knockout archaeological /scientific blow? Great. I am all for it, as you should know by now. Science is science and evidence will eventually reveal the truth. Therefore, to this end, Kadesh has to be addressed – and ALL the ensuing logistics.
Meantime, all we have is a nice theory.
Right, I agree. All we have is a nice theory. And that is true for all sides. I don’t think “knock-out” blows are realistic when we’re talking about ancient history. There’s too much extrapolation and speculation involved since we only have a very small fraction of archeological evidence for anything in ancient history. And I have no problem with that.
As I said, I will look more into Kadesh Barnea when I have more time. I can only cover one subject at a time effectively with the relatively little amount of time I have. I don’t know if I will cover it in a different post or just here. We’ll see…
Than I will await your post on Kadesh and reserve further judgment. As perhaps you should as well?
But at least you have something to consider alongside Rohl’s re-dating:
Just why is there no evidence at any time to suggest that Kadesh Barnea was occupied by tens of thousand or even hundreds of thousands of people?
And why no evidence of this mass of humanity in any text anywhere outside of the bible, especially in surrounding city states etc?
Even though we have evidence for Israelites as slaves in Egypt, suddenly leaving, creating a collapse of Egyptian power, followed by the sudden destruction of Jericho and other cities like Hazor by fire,
What evidence for Israelite slaves? What evidence for them suddenly leaving?
Jericho fell 300 years BEFORE Hazor. And Hazor is the only city which matches the date of Conquest… which happened over a very, very, very short period of time. Where are the thirty other cities that Joshua leveled?
And do explain how the Egyptains, who had military garrisons across Canaan, didn’t respond to this?
Actually, we have evidence that Hazor was burned at least twice (possibly three times). Yigael Yadin excavated the Hazor site and His findings present some interesting evidence. He notes the discovery of a Late Bronze II period gate erected on the foundation of the earlier Middle Bronze Age II gate. He then writes:
On this discovery, Bruce Waltke notes:
But two destructions fit the Bible narrative. It’s feasible that the first destruction of Hazor is dated to early fifteenth century BCE. The second has been dated to the mid-late thirteenth century BC. The fifteenth-century destruction should be attributed to the Israelites under Joshua (Joshua 11). The mid-late thirteenth century BC destruction of could be attributed to the campaign of Deborah and Barak against Hazor (Judges 4.12).
The Joshua destruction of Hazor fits a 15th century BCE Jericho destruction.
Keep going, you have twenty nine other cities you’re trying to ram into this unfounded, unsupported thesis.
No, I’m not going to waste my time digging out every detail for you, John. And, btw, you lose credibility when you dismiss it as an “unsupported thesis.” It is supported by several scholars in the field. It just doesn’t agree with you or (the current) mainstream archeologists. We’ll see what they say in 20-30 years as this gets fleshed out. But being dismissive doesn’t add anything to your argument.
The only point I’m making here is that the Exodus story is not totally made up as some suppose. While there’s certainly hyperbole and exaggerations in the story, later scribal additions, it’s based in real events (Again, this was the normal way of stating things in the ancient world). And the Bible argues internally against the hyperbole, brilliantly providing testimony and counter-testimony as scholars like Brueggerman have shown.
Sorry Mel, but you’re citing fringe crackpots who aren’t taken seriously.
It’s not a conspiracy.
It’s just the facts gathered over a century of exhaustive investigative work.
The only point I’m making here is that the Exodus story is not totally made up as some suppose.
Yes, the Hyksos, most probably.
hyperbole and exaggerations
Like the supernatural?
Haha, not too dismissive are you. So, you’re an expert now? You can judge these experts as crackpots? And, keep in mind, Rohl is no Evangelical Christian. He’s an agnostic. We’ll see where this goes in the coming years when the “mainstream” finally stopped ignoring the evidence.
Hyksos are NOT the same people, John. They probably came after the sheepherder-slaves that were found suddenly left the settlements. They Hyksos could defeat Egypt because of its weakened state. No one knows for certain.
Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine:
Rabbi Adam Chalom PhD (he is talking about the Pentateuch):
Professor Ze’ev Herzog, Tel Aviv University (the world’s preeminent biblical archaeologist)
To repeat that last line: Those who take an interest have known these facts for years
Give it up Mel… You’re just going to look like a Young Earth Creationist going down this path.
Do what the learned rabbis have done: adapt to reality.
Reality? Right, whatever…
John, would YOU please give it up. Quoting these people says nothing that I don’t already know. What these Rabbis have done is jumped on the current bandwagon of mainstream thought on this. But a majority view has often historically proven to be the wrong view in the end. The only rabbi I will listen to is Jesus.
We can go on with quote wars all day if you want. There is no question that most Rabbis and archeologists believe the mainstream thought from the last 50 years. And that will probably change in the coming decades. Keep in mind, if the dating is off (which there is strong evidence that it is), then they’ve been looking in the wrong place and all of it comes crashing down like a house of cards.
I have already shown you (and the documentary has shown) that these archeologists don’t accept the data because they’re stuck in a 13th century Exodus, not because of the actual evidence.
So, again…we’ll see.
Christianity Today’s Kevin D. Miller, 1998:
Robert Coote, Senior Research Professor of Hebrew Exegesis at San Francisco’s Theological Seminary
Niels Peter Lemche of the University of Copenhagen
.
Baruch Halpern, Professor of Jewish Studies of Pennsylvania State University
Rabbi Wolpe
Again, ALL of these are based on the mainstream dating, which the New Chronology argues is wrong.
John, please give it up. You are not adding to your argument. You can give 1000 of these quotes, Nothing changes. They are all basing their information on what I believe is erroneous data.
No, no… I’m sure you’re right Mel.
Every Israeli archaeologist and rabbi has gotten it all wrong, whereas a handful of American evangelical Christian amateurs working out of theological bible schools (who’ve never even led a dig in Israel, and can’t publish any papers in reputable journals) have unearthed the Truth™
Great work!
John, you’re not listening. ALL of their conclusions are based on chronology that is currently being contested. IF the dating changes in the future, their current conclusions evaporate.
And if they are honest scientists, they will change their views, if it can be conclusively shown to them that the dating needs to adjusted.
You make it sound like archeology is static and dogmatic and cannot be changed. That is simply not true, as the last 100 years has proven.
And your dismissive quip about “Christian amateurs” is a totally ignorant dismissal. you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Contested where? Show me a published (peer-reviewed) JSTOR paper…
Let me review what you’re proposing here Mel.
1. The specific date given by the bible for the Exodus is wrong (ie. the bible is wrong)
2. The specific numbers in the Exodus given in the bible are wrong (ie. the bible is wrong)
3. The specific Stations where the Exodus stopped as given in the bible are wrong (ie. the bible is wrong)
4. The specific times spent at these Stations (which didn’t exist) as given in the bible are wrong (ie. the bible is wrong)
5. The Conquest of Canaan, as detailed in the bible, is wrong (ie. the bible is wrong)
6. The kingdoms mentioned in the Exodus are wrong (ie. the bible is wrong)
7. The people’s met in the Exodus are wrong (ie. the bible is wrong)
8. Every supernatural thing and god mentioned in the Exodus is, however, correct.
And I see you’re still ignoring the awkward fact that Canaan was under Egyptian military rule at the time of Conquest (later or earlier dates, it doesn’t matter)
No, I am not saying that at all. You are just being ridiculous now.
That is, sadly, exactly what you’re saying… and more.
Look Mel, you can play pseudo-academia and change the dates all you like. It doesn’t change the fact that the story is not even remotely supported by any archaeological find.
I cannot stress this next point more forcibly: there is no conspiracy.
Don’t dress yourself in a Young Earth Creationist-type cloak.
I strongly suggest you purchase and read the Etz Hayim: Torah and Commentary; the first authorised commentary on the Torah since 1936. Published in 2001 by the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism (in collaboration with the Rabbinical Assembly and the Jewish Publication Society), the 1,559 page long Etz Hayim concludes with 41 essays written by prominent rabbis and scholars who admit the Pentateuch is little more than a self-serving myth rife with anachronisms and un-ignorable archeological inconsistencies, and rather than triumphant conquest, Israel instead emerged slowly and relatively peacefully out of the general Canaanite population.
And again, I stress this: these people have dedicated their lives to studying the Tanakh across multiple disciplines, and they have more invested in their origin narrative being true than you could ever hope to have in 10,000 lifetimes.
They are not going to accept the position they have accepted without overwhelming evidence.
There is no conspiracy.
These are the facts. They are not secret. They have been in the public domain for decades, but as Professor Magen Broshi, Chief Archaeologist at the Israel Museum, Jerusalem, explained:
Mel, I just did another quick search through JSTOR and found one mention of Rohl in a review of a book. Read the introduction to the review of this supposed “new chronology.”
I’ve never seen an academic reviewer be so outwardly damning of a work.
That is who, and what, you’re attaching your tent to. It’s a laughing stock.
John, this is just part of the ongoing debate over the various chronology theories. Your article was actually directed at Bernard Newgrosh (who I don’t even think is an archeologist, not sure) lumping him in with Rohl. Here’s a post by Rohl talking about the Velikovskian and Glasgow Chronologies, and how he responds to that.
http://davidrohl.blogspot.com/2012/11/an-alternative-to-velikovskian.html
While the mainstream may disagree with Rohl (at this point), he’s not a laughing stock by any means.
I know it critques Newgrosh, who is the latest in the line of cranks, included the named Rohl, as stated.
Rabbi Steven Leder
Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, Dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies at the University of Judaism
Rabbi Nardy Grün
Rabbi Robert Schreibman
Rabbi, Jeffrey Falick
Rabbi, David Wolpe
A thought occurred to me yesterday: do you have a figure in mind regarding the numbers of returning Israelites?
No particular number that I’m dogmatic about.
Well, you must have some idea based on your current research. What do the people you have been reading believe?
It goes anywhere from thousands to 2.5 million. I think the latter number is way too high.
Yesterday you criticized my mention of 2.5 mil.
So what is your best guess based on your research?
Like I said, I have no guess to make. I would have to study it further.
But I thought you have been studying it? What do Rohl and Mahonney believe?
I haven’t read anything about what they believe on actual numbers. Mahoney is coming out with a new documentary: “Patterns of Evidence: Moses” pretty soon. I’m sure he’ll get more specific on those numbers.
Do neither Rohl or Mahoney allude to any numbers at all? They must have had some idea regarding the number of slaves surely?
They probably give numbers somewhere. We know for certain that the slave settlement at Avaris was 25,000-30,000. There are about 20 other settlements in the area that have yet to be dug up.
How do we know that figure is correct?
Well, take it up with Beitak (who’s a renowned archeologist from Vienna, not a Christian). He’s been digging there for over 30 years.
Got a link?
I got that information from the documentary. It is on Netflix here if you have that.
Nope, don’t have it.
I would have to research it then. Don’t have it in print.
Wasn’t Avaris the Hyksos capital?
Yes, around that time. In the documentary, some were saying that the Hyksos probably came in after the Exodus because of Egypt’s weakened condition. But I haven’t investigated it thoroughly. The point is, the slaves/sheepherders weren’t the Hyksos.
What was Bietak’s dating of Avaris, do you know?
I remember if it gave an exact dating. I would have to watch it again. I know it’s in the Middle Bronze Age.
Okay.
I have seen pictures depicting workers apparently making bricks, but they are all dark skinned. This does not fir the image of Israelites who are generally light skinned.
Although slaves were taken as spoils of war there does not seem to be any clear cut evidence that such slaves were Hebrews (Israelites)
The pictures are just depictions, having little to do with reality.
Besides the sheepherders that lived there in peace in the earlier period (found buried Semitic-style, with sheep and donkeys, etc.) Later. the slaves were Asiatic, not Egyptian. There was a list found of 100 slaves. Many listed had Hebrew-type names. There’s a lot more detail in the documentary.
I do not quite understand this comment. Are you suggesting that such images are not real?
I have read of graves comntainig horses but these were attributed to military personnel.
Are you saying human graves have been found containing humans and sheep ?
Semitic slaves ( Canaanites) are known of as spoils of war. There are documented records.
How does this show an accurate portrayal of the biblical tale?
You really need to watch the documentary. You can rent it on YouTube.
Again, how do you know they were slaves?
Community service was big in Egypt, and we know semitics were living peacefully in Egypt. It was, after all, just down the road, and the superpower of the day. The Egyptians were brilliant record keepers, and there exists a kind of ancient fashion book where the dress styles of the foreign people who lived peacefully within the kingdom were noted. In it there is an example of a Semitic style tunic with stripped patterns.
How do We know for certain, Mel?
Can you present this evidence, please?
Are you aware that construction projects in Egypt likely employed ordinary Egyptains who moved to the site (and lived in temporary camps) when not needed for harvest/planting. It was a type of accepted community service.
And yet the bible specifically says, 600,000 men of fighting age, which means 2.5+ million people (plus animals). It even repeats the number when in Kadesh Barnea they had to wait till every one of those 600,000 were dead. That’s 600,000 graves… and given the other deaths in this 40 year period, we are missing 3,000,000+ graves, not to mention the tens of millions of animal bones.
The Pentateuch according to Mel: The Bible is categorically wrong on everything. Every fact it mentions is a lie… except it did all happen, just not the way it was said to have happened… except for the supernatural stuff. That’s all happened exactly as it says it happened in the bible, which you should ignore because it’s wrong on everything else. But isn’t.
As I stated earlier: you can play pseudo-academia games and change the dates all you like. It doesn’t change the fact that the story is not even remotely supported by any archaeological find. In fact, moving the date to a later time simply creates even more problems and inconsistencies.
There is no conspiracy.
And dancing about, flailing your arms about, hollering “but the Egyptian chronology might be different” does nothing to support your ultimate motive: proving the biblical narrative of 500 years enslavement, an exodus of some 2.5 million people (and animals), 40 years at Kadesh Barnea, and the annihilation of 31 Canaanite cities in a lightning fast war lasting no more than a few weeks.
This didn’t happen in the 13th Century BCE, and it didn’t happen in the 15th or 17th Century BCE.
There is no arrival of foreigners (with unique language, technology, customs, diet, architecture, tools etc) in the Judean hills at either date. The hills would not begin to be settled until 50 years after the well-documented landing of the Philistines on the Levant in 1110 BCE.
If you want to move dates, Mel, you’d be wiser to try and shove it to the earlier period.
Don’t dress yourself in a Young Earth Creationist-type cloak.
Hi Mel
I don’t really have anything directly relevant to the post, just some general thoughts on archaeology in Israel in general. I was just there this past spring and learned a few things. The entire place is a giant potential archaeological dig, and the amount of things not yet discovered is astounding. Many won’t ever be discovered given the politics and ownership of much of the land. I think of the city of Magdala. For years and years there was no proof that such a thing, or the Synagogue Jesus preached in there even existed. Just another “myth.” Well lo and behold it took no more than an attempt to build a new Hotel, and voila…there was Magdala. We can’t rest any case on the simple fact that evidence has yet to be discovered. I also saw the dig at Meggido, where there are so many different civilizations piled on top of each other, that the ones on the bottom may not be uncovered in our lifetime. I also think of the Synagogue Jesus preached in in Capernaum. Many said such a thing never existed; in fact, some denied the existence of any Synagogues from the time of Jesus, because they went so long without being found. Capernaum turned out to be easy to find; the Roman era one was literally built on top of it. Just sayin.
That’s very true, Wally. I was in Israel twice and it was amazing. We went to several archeological sites. But, as you said, most of the potential sites will probably never be uncovered (or they’ve already been ruined).
Meggido, where there are so many different civilizations piled on top of each other, that the ones on the bottom may not be uncovered in our lifetime
It’s a stretch, Wally, to say “civilisations.” Meggido was so small and feeble that 100 garrison troops were enough to secure and defend it against a takeover by another tribe… and this is at the biblical time of Exodus/Conquest. We know this from the Amarna letters where Biridiya, the chieftain of Meggido, is practically groveling for the help of king Amenhotep IV. It reads:
Of course, here we have evidence of Canaan being under Egyptain military rule, with garrisons stationed right across the land, including on both sides of the Jordan River.
Strange, then, how Joshua rampaged across the country, sacking 30 cities, and the Egyptains didn’t seem to notice.
John
Obviously you know nothing of Meggido. I have accurately portrayed what is happening there, and what happened there in the past. I won’t, however, waste my time arguing with you over it because you won’t accept any evidence presented to you other than what supports your cut and paste war. FYI. I wasn’t talking about 30 cities. Nice deflection.
Yes, obviously I know nothing, Wally.
You, however, went on a guided bus tour and know everything.
Carry on, Professor.
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